Holly Pascal
00:29:21
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Show Notes
NASA Engineer and Women's Aerospace Network Founder Holly Pascal joins the podcast to share resume and career development tips, as well as her experience founding and building out the Women's Aerospace Network. Tune in and learn how to advance your career in any industry with the skills you have!
Relevant episode links:
Women’s Aerospace Network,LinkedIn - Women’s Aerospace Network,Podcast - Space for All
About Holly Pascal:
Holly Pascal, NASA Engineer, Founder & Author.
Holly Pascal believes that the convergence of empowerment and innovation can lead to solving many of humanity's most complex challenges.
She envisions a world where more individuals are empowered with the tools and knowledge to drive transformative change, not just in their lives but in the lives of others.
This philosophy inspired her to write The College to Dream Job Blueprint and found The Women's Aerospace Network (WAN), the largest women's aerospace community in America, which connects, amplifies, and inspires a universal passion for aerospace.
Holly holds a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering, a Master's in Artificial Intelligence, and is a graduate of Wharton's Executive Program in Leadership and Management. As a NASA Headquarters Systems Engineer, she is dedicated to advancing humanity and improving lives through aerospace advancements. Holly strives to leave a legacy of a positive impact on the world.
Transcript
Welcome to the show where we chronicle women’s journeys to the bench, bar, and beyond, and seek to inspire the next generation of women lawyers and women law students. I am pleased to have joined us on the show, Holly Pascal. She is not a lawyer, but she has an amazing background. She is a NASA Engineer and also is the Founder of the Women’s Aerospace Network on LinkedIn and soon to be in-person. I understand there’s some in-person networking potential from that as well.
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Welcome, Holly.
Thanks for having me.
We have our Continuing Space series on the show. I thought, “We’ve had a NASA astronaut. We must have a NASA engineer.” I wondered if you could speak a little bit about how you came to want to be an engineer more generally and more specifically at NASA. It might also be helpful because there’ll be a lot of lawyers tuning in and saying, “What does a NASA engineer do? What kinds of things do you work on?” We’ll start first with what brought you to engineering.
Growing up, I always thought that people who worked at NASA were men in white lab coats off in some distant land. It never really occurred to me that I could be working at NASA. I stumbled into it, and I am very grateful for that. I was about to graduate school and all of a sudden, I realized that I didn’t have a plan. It was always putting your head down, studying, doing the right things, and getting good grades.
I started applying to good jobs that I really wanted. I quickly realized that none of them were accepting my application. It made me angry because here I was, I thought I was doing all the right things. I was leading clubs and had gotten scholarships. I was going for my Master’s in AI at the time. I sat there and started thinking, “What’s the point of going for my Master’s if none of these jobs are accepting me?”
I did a radical thing. I thought I was crazy at the time. It was one of the scariest things that I’ve ever done in my life. I dropped out of school. I had a full ride and I dropped out. I took some time and I really dove into what a resume looks like that doesn’t get you just a decent job but gets you a job that you are proud of, that you are screaming and jumping for joy, and that makes all of the years that you spent in college working hard worth it. I dropped out of school. I spent the time and revamped my profile, and my LinkedIn. I spent time diving into all subjects that I had never heard of, like personal branding. I eventually got a job six months later that, with tears running down my face, made everything worth it.
Retooling For Career Success
How did you reverse engineer all of the different things that you had to do to retool things from what would be more like the school academic setting, like what would look good to a school if you were applying to it, and then moving on to, “An employer, what are they looking for? How do I present in a way that maximizes my opportunities?”
In engineering school, we don’t learn much about the business side of things. It’s very much, or at least in my experience, solving the equations, doing the math, and being the best at solving the algorithm. A lot of imposter syndrome can set in, as I’m sure to any degree, when you can’t solve it as quickly as somebody else or if you don’t know the answer.
There’s so much emphasis put on those hard skills that there’s a lot lacking for the soft skills, like charisma and understanding what is important to the lawyer and the client at the end of the day. By studying more of those soft skills, as a lawyer, those skills are incredibly important. I often think to myself how much you can apply to be a lawyer to other degrees. I have always been fascinated with how a lawyer becomes the CEO of a company. It almost transcends so many different disciplines.
I looked at a lot of different concepts similar to that and started to take a step back. Once I learned that, I was like, “It’s not about showing how great I am or what I can do, because even if I am the best at solving the algorithm, if I can’t communicate the value that I have, the company doesn’t see value in me.” It all really comes down to communication at the end of the day.
That’s true. It’s also understanding what is valuable or what will be seen as valuable by someone else, what their interests are, and what their needs are, right?
Definitely. After school, I started working for L3Harris. I loved that job. It was a great defense company. It’s a Fortune 500. I was fortunate enough to get into a leadership development program there. I started in the communications system segment, and then I transferred up to Fort Wayne, Indiana, and started working in aerospace. That was my first gateway into aerospace professionally.
In college, I had teamed up with a bunch of undergrads. We sat in a room and said, “Let’s build a cube satellite.” It was an audacious idea. None of us had any idea about aerospace or how to build a satellite. My college didn’t even offer a degree in Aerospace Engineering. It’s that audacious thinking that gets you to the next step and gets that experience under your belt.
When I thought there was an opportunity to get into the aerospace field, I jumped at it. I was fortunate enough to be working on GOES. It is an earth-orbiting weather satellite. That is responsible for all of the weather information that we get on our phones that we see on the news, helps data to see forest fires, and all of that fun jazz.
Your work on a cube set earlier probably helped in that, right?
Yeah. It taught me so many lessons. We’re in an interesting era. This is my own opinion. It’s interesting in space because it’s so old but so new at the same time. There are a lot of opportunities for students that don’t exist yet, these opportunities. A lot of these trailblazers in space are paving the way. For the Women’s Space Awards, which I’ll talk about in a bit, we see a lot of trailblazers who are the first analog astronauts of their country. These are people from various third-world countries that don’t really have much of a space presence but they are figuring it out one step at a time, trying to bring the aerospace world into theirs.
It is an interesting era because we’re moving from a time when there were a few space-varying nations to potentially many. There are also so many different actors in space, not just a few governments. A lot of different commercial space actors are at the forefront too. It’s an exciting time building on the foundation in the US of the work of NASA in large part. If you can, can you share what kinds of projects or things you’ve worked on at NASA and what that looks like being a NASA engineer?
Current Role At NASA Headquarters
Sure. I’m at NASA Headquarters in Washington, DC through ASRC Federal I support SCaN. It’s the communication satellites that support all of NASA and more missions. There are three primary deep-space antennas around the world. One in Australia, Goldstone, and Spain. They’re about the size of a football field. Those are responsible for all the deep space missions like Hubble or Voyager. Those are tremendous, beautiful bees. There are plenty more on the aerospace space network that are all around the world.
That’s very cool. Tell me also about the Women’s Aerospace network that you founded, what brought you to decide to do that, and what’s your vision for that.
Founding The Women's Aerospace Network
With engineering, it comes as no surprise that there aren’t many women in the field. I knew that in school. It didn’t necessarily bother me because I knew what I was up for. When I first got into the workforce, I had some female coworkers and I was happy. I then got this one position and I was the only woman in my entire department. There was another woman, but she went on maternity leave the week after I got the position. It hit me then. I was lonely. I didn’t want anybody else to feel that way.
Suddenly, it was this rush of, “I can be part of the change.” It’s a two-factor solution. We have to help change it right, for the next generation, but we have to also be here when they get here. It’s really promoting that you can be in aerospace no matter your passion or no matter your discipline. We need space lawyers. We need graphic designers in aerospace.
Space is for all. No matter your passion or discipline, there's a place for you in aerospace. We need space lawyers, graphic designers, and more. The future holds countless new careers we can't even imagine yet.
At NASA Headquarters, I work with graphic designers and financial analysts every single day. It’s promoting the concept that space is so new and is across so many disciplines. By the time that a lot of the kids in middle school get out of college, there are going to be so many more careers that don’t exist now. It’s helping empower the next generation and empower each other that if it doesn’t exist yet, do it. Try it.
With the Women’s Space Awards, there were so many women who were advancing their field, like creating technology to help pilots who speak English as a second language to help translate the numbers, women who are founding companies for food production in space, medical science, and doctors. I found the Women’s Space Network in 2024. It has blown up in a beautiful way. We are the largest women’s aerospace organization in America. We had the Women’s Space Awards, the first ever. Our wonderful host was a nominee. We had eight different categories, things like next year, you never know, we might have a law category. There are quite a few lawyers.
This 2024 were the different leadership categories. There wasn’t a law one, but there were enough lawyers to maybe have a category.
It’s really giving a place and a voice to minority groups that maybe haven’t been heard before or have been working silently for so many years. It’s providing that recognition and opening opportunities. We’ll continue to do that. We have a magazine that’s about to launch here pretty soon, the world’s first women’s aerospace magazine. We have a podcast that launched not too long ago.
I like your vision of it in terms of multidimensional that there’s the ability to connect online through LinkedIn, but then also having the awards where you’re celebrating people who are doing amazing things. That also conveys very tangibly the message that space is for many. There are many things to make a difference in space. Engineering could be one way but there are other ways. There’s also the multimedia aspect from the magazine and the podcast so that you can story tell wherever people are most comfortable or most interested. If they don’t want to read the magazine, they can listen to certain episodes of the podcast. It’s a great overall strategy. It’s very impressive.
Thank you. I am paying it forward. There have been a lot of people who have helped amplify my voice when I needed it.
Exactly. That’s really what you can do, is only pay it forward. Generally, you can help those who helped you, but also, the thing that mentors like to see is that you’re also mentoring others and paying it forward to the next generation, which you’re doing through the network. You raised that a little bit in terms of mentors, sponsors, or those who have made a difference in your career. Where have they shown up, and how has that shown up for you?
The Role Of Mentors In Career Development
I have been incredibly blessed throughout my career with people who have taken a chance on me and people who have taken the time and out of kindness to explain things when they didn’t have to. At one point in my career, it was bananas. I had four formal mentors at the same time. For a while, there was an imbalance. I was taking more than I was giving. It bothered me, but at the same time, it taught me that there’s an ebb and flow. Sometimes, you’ll take more, and then other times, you’ll be able to give back more.
I’m at an era in my life where I’m grateful to be giving back as much as I can. I see the same thing. A lot of the kids that I mentor in college and even younger tell me a lot of the same things and a lot of the same feelings that I had in school where they didn’t feel like they were doing enough or giving back enough. I explained to them, “It’s your time to put the oxygen mask on. When you have that air, you can take it off and hand over the reins to others.” I owe a lot.
In the Women’s Aerospace Network, we have an incredible board of advisors. They truly help be my North Star when I’m lost. They provide the contacts when I’m in a slam. They hold my hand almost on a daily basis when there’s a victory or a loss. I’m still incredibly grateful for all of those and the friends and the support system that I have that have made the Women’s Aerospace Network possible and continue to do so.
Another really impressive thing is the team building that you’ve done within the networks so early. Maybe that’s from your engineering background and comfort with having teams and leading teams on projects. Having so newly created network and then having this advisory committee start to come in place very early in the life of the organization is impressive. That doesn’t usually happen that quickly. I appreciate having sounding boards and people who can vet things and brainstorm with them. It’s a blessing to have that.
It did come together quickly. There’s an expression for it. Picasso studied his whole life to be able to draw a picture in 30 seconds. It’s very much the same thing. I failed many times. I failed hard and fast. The quicker you execute, the faster you can fail and the quicker you can learn those lessons that you need to.
Fail forward. The faster you execute and fail, the quicker you learn the lessons you need. Embrace mistakes as opportunities for growth and improvement.
That’s true. That’s a really hard thing. That’s something that people who build things, whether they’re companies, satellites, or whatnot, have an innate understanding of that and the value of that. That’s a hard lesson for lawyers to learn because we’re never supposed to make any mistakes at all. We’re there making sure everybody’s online and on board. We can’t make a mistake.
Occasionally, for some things, it’s nice to have this openness to the potential for failure because that teaches you how to grow and where to improve things. I’m glad you said that because it’s something that’s valued certainly in entrepreneurship and building things. Law students and lawyers are taught the opposite. We’re risk averse. There’s a lot of value in that perspective.
There also are times when things are meant to be and there’s someone who’s bringing it forward. The time is right for what you’re creating and the venue you’re creating for people to meet and excel in. The time has come for it. Having someone do that work to make it possible, you’re the right person to do it. It’s coming together. It’s both things. There’s a need that people are recognizing, but also, you’re doing it so well. You’re attracting people to the network for that reason as well.
I agree. Circling back to the risk-averse thing, very similarly, there’s NASA. They’re very risk-averse as well. They’re careful. Things are tested, verified, and retested. They also conduct a lot of lessons learned. It’s a similar thing. I’m still making mistakes daily and people have been patient with me, especially the team. I’ll continue to make mistakes. I hope that I keep doing that because that’s the only way that I’ll learn and the only way I’ll be able to improve the Women’s Aerospace Network.
That’s how you grow. Putting the value judgments on the word failure, sometimes, it’s like, “I did it this way,” and it turns out it was a great idea but in execution, it did not work for the following reasons. Now, I have the opportunity to retool it, meet people where they are, and figure out what the best way to accomplish this is.” Sometimes, we put in a little bit too much when we go, “There’s lots of failure.” Maybe not. It wasn’t meant to be that way. You’re on the road to the way that’s going to resonate with people.
You have a beautiful thing with the Women’s Aerospace Network. I look forward to seeing where it goes next and what you do with it beyond its first half-year of existence. Usually, I close up our episodes with a few lightning-round questions. I’m going to ask you a few of those. I’m going to start first with I know you have the book that you published from your experience about applying for jobs and building careers. What would be your top tip from that book?
Top Career Tips From Holly's Book
Make your resume results-oriented. That is it. Second, have a website. Third of all, make your resume results-oriented.
Make your resume results-oriented. That's the key to standing out. And don't forget to have a website - it's your digital portfolio and personal brand showcase.
I like that. That is true. That’s a good summary. Which talent would you most like to have but don’t?
Super speed.
Who are some of your favorite writers?
I would have to say Dorie Clark. She is a business writer very much about personal development. Her books have a simple concept but they are really powerful and transformative. She’s the one who inspired me to launch my first newsletter. The newsletter doesn’t get a ton of views and a ton of likes, but every once in a while, probably at least once a month, some student runs into it or some small publication group and it inspires them. It means a lot. They reach out to me and tell me about how much it helped them. There have been a lot of students. A teenager reached out and said she was inspired by my newsletter and she’s going to start one. Dorie Clark is the one who inspired me. It’s beautiful to see how one person with the ripple effect can inspire the voice of so many.
She has some really powerful and effective principles from her books. That’s true. It’s neat. Also, that’s a good point about how sometimes, people think online, social media, or anything that you put out into the world that you’re creating that somehow, it’s the quantity that matters. Unless millions are liking or doing whatever, then it’s not worth doing.
I don’t think that’s true at all because of the quality of it or the impact you can have. If you can have an impact on a few people but a meaningful one, then it’s worth creating something and it’s worth doing something online or otherwise that can impact people. I agree with that choice to continue. That’s a good thing. Sometimes, people don’t think about that. They’re like, “I’m going to stop because there aren’t tons of people.” Some people might see something that really helps them out. Who is your hero in real life?
My dad. He has been a huge support to me all the time. I saw a meme that was like, “Behind every woman is another woman proofreading her emails.” That’s very much my dad for me. He has been a great advisor.
Behind every successful woman is often a supportive father. Having a dad who believes in you and supports your endeavors can significantly boost your confidence and impact on the world.
My dad was the same way. Also, it really helps having a father who’s like that who’s supportive in that way in what you are doing and how you are doing it in terms of your confidence in what you bring of yourself to the world. It helps, especially as a younger woman. For what in life do you feel most grateful?
Circling back to talking about the mentors, I would have to say them. Hands down. They have helped me make more important decisions in my life than they will ever know. The impact has been so profound in my life. It’s not like they talk with me and that experience stays or helps me for a week. Sometimes, it does, but sometimes, it can be a month or years later. In my career as a systems engineer, I’m referring back to topics that a chief engineer told me years ago before I ever got into systems engineering.
There are a lot of things that stay with you. Sometimes, there are things that you don’t realize at the time and they may not resonate in the same way, but as you go on in your career, you’re like, “That’s what they were talking about.” It’ll come back to you and help you in different situations. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? This could be more than one person, and they could be with us or not with us.
That’s a very tricky question. I would say Darren Hardy. He is a multimillionaire. He has a lot of businesses that he has created. He is an entrepreneur. He puts a lot of content out there. In all honesty, I wouldn’t say it’s amazing content, which is what inspires me about it. It’s that he has been so successful without necessarily being the best.
Circling back to the LinkedIn newsletter, anytime that I start to think, “I don’t know if this is going to be helpful. It’s not really that great,” I think of Darren Hardy. It almost makes me angry that he has achieved so much talent without doing it that well. If he can do it, I can do it. I admire him tremendously. I would love to sit down with him and ask him everything.
When you were describing that, I was thinking, “It would be interesting to talk to someone like that because of how their mind works and how they are into so many different things.” They’re maybe not the very best at certain things, but there’s something about that and that level of authenticity too in doing that. They’re not afraid. They’re unafraid, like, “Here I am.”
I couldn’t agree more.
Last question. What is your motto if you have one?
Holly's Motto: Space For All And Fail Forward
There are two themes of this conversation. It’s, “Space for All,” which is the tagline of Women’s Aerospace Network and, “Fail Forward” by John C. Maxwell.
That’s a great summation of our discussion and some of the things you brought up. Thank you so much for sharing what I didn’t think would be about personal branding, careers, resumes, and all of that stuff. It’s very wide-ranging. I appreciate all of your thoughts. I hope that this episode will inspire others to build out networks, organizations, and support for other women in the law and elsewhere. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.