ABA Leader and Founder of Stewart Law Group

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Today’s guest uses what she learned as a student-athlete to build an inclusive team at her law firm. Amy M. Stewart is the founding partner of Stewart Law Group, the only minority and women-owned law firm based in the Dallas Fort Worth area representing companies in business, employment, and personal injury disputes. Prior to going to law school, Amy was an NCAA Division I collegiate student-athlete and coach. She uses her experiences in sports to build inclusive teams based on the concept of servant leadership, winning the right way, and relying on a strong work ethic to get things done for her firm clients. Tune in and learn more about her professional and entrepreneurial journey and her unique contribution to the legal industry.

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Relevant episode links:

Stewart Law Group, A Most Beautiful Thing, Brené Brown, James Patterson

About Amy M. Stewart:

 Amy M. Stewart is the founding partner of Stewart Law Group, the only minority and women owned law firm based in the DFW area representing companies in business, employment, and personal injury disputes. A NAMWOLF member firm, Stewart Law Group is at the forefront as a nationally recognized and award-winning minority-owned litigation firm that proves diversity and excellence are not mutually exclusive in the legal profession. A fun fact also is that prior to going to law school, Amy was a NCAA Division I collegiate student-athlete and coach. She uses her experiences in sports to build inclusive teams based on the concept of servant leadership, winning the right way, and relying on a strong work ethic to get things done for her firm clients.

I am so pleased to have joined the show, Amy Stewart, the Founder of the Stewart Law Group in Texas and a very well-regarded leader in the American Bar Association Litigation Section. Welcome, Amy. 

How are you, MC?

I'm great. Thank you so much for joining. You have such a great background both in sports, which you bring to your culture in your law firm and unique that you have founded a law firm. Many people that have been on the show have been at bigger law firms that they did not build. You have a firm that's very committed to diversity. We want to talk about that but first, I want to ask you how you got into law, to begin with, and what appealed to you. Why did you decide to go to law school?

It’s a convoluted story. It starts with you talking about sports. I was raised in High Point, North Carolina. The only time we heard anything about lawyers is when somebody had gotten himself in a heap of trouble. I always thought about going to law school but I didn't know how that happened. I used sports to get out of tough situations. It took me to Wake Forest University. I played basketball there and then I coached college basketball at Wake Forest in Tulane. I then decided, “I don't think this is what my calling is.” I was on that path and no path is straight. I ended up living in Columbia, Missouri, married and was doing pharmaceutical sales.

I was meeting with one of the doctors thinking, “This isn't my calling.” I was hemming and hawing with one of the doctors. He goes, “Why are you doing this?” I said, “I love this man and I live in Columbia, Missouri.” He said, “You need to go to medical school or law school.” I was like, “I don't like the sight of blood so that narrows it down.” He planted that seed in my head, which I hope what your show does for folks, that I can do that. I started the path of going to law school. I can finally say I've found my calling and that is being a trial attorney. I’m living in Dallas, Texas and growing this law firm that gives everyone the experience they need to litigate on this side of the v.

It's interesting too. Sometimes, people can see things in us that we don't see. The doctor who said, “You need to do this or that,” saw that potential in you.

That is what I look for with anyone that I hire to be a part of our team. Diversity and excellence are not mutually exclusive. I'm also someone that believes that representation matters so I spend a lot of time, like you, mentoring many people from all different walks of life that you too can do this. It takes a lot of hard work, dedication and sacrifice but you can do it too.

You need to be committed to training and making sure that people get those skills so that you're able to combine the different experiences on diverse experiences with the level of excellence.

You probably remember. When we were younger lawyers, you sat at the knee of the partner. It's like a cobbler. You learned how to craft this argument, do this, do that and get these skills. With the business of law, sometimes that is lost. Part of our job as being the greatest profession because of the impact we have not on one person but the world is we are in charge of training the next generation. Sometimes that's lost because of the business side of the legal profession.

There's still an apprenticeship element. There are so many things where that are still relevant and important for both in terms of, if you tell someone how you do something and you've done it for so long, there are things you're going to forget to tell them that you do. Somebody has to watch you and go, “Do you know you also do that?” You’re like, “No. I'm not conscious of that so I'm not going to tell you that's what I do.”

The second part is I hope that the law is still some degree a profession and not just a business and that we instill also giving back to the community. Doing pro bono work and having a culture of civility, all of that only comes from someone working, training and inculcating that in the next generation as well. What do you love about being a trial attorney? You said you found your calling. Why do you think that's your calling and what do you love about it?

Anyone that's in the hall of fame of anything has sacrificed so much of their time to their craft. And the law is also a craft. 

There are not many professions that you can say that you practice hard for 1 big game, 1 big hearing or 1 big trial and people show up to watch you do it. There are sports. There's acting but in acting, you're not being yourself. There are also trial lawyers or appellate lawyers. Name another profession where that's the deal. From being in sports and being immersed in it for so many years, I was looking for that type of experience that would feed me the same way. A trial is it. We would have basketball practice. Now, I have a legal practice. We have a big game. Now, I have a big hearing or trial.

There are intangible skills that come from being a student-athlete that easily transfer over to being a trial attorney that I never understood until I have been in this role. We get older. We start looking at our life in segments and we’re like, “Since I had that experience, it makes me better now. Since I failed here, I'm having success now.” That's it. There are so many similarities between the two. I'm a glutton for punishment and a lot of anxiety.

There's that too. I always think about the appellate arguments. The argument itself is great but all of that stuff beforehand where you're preparing hard, not sleeping and all that stuff you knew before a trial is like, “If I could do it without that, it would be lovely.” Without that, it wouldn't be the same or as enjoyable when you get there in court so you have to do it all. That's how it is.

You and I talking, I took a note of getting in the zone. You get in the zone when you're making that argument. You probably look away from your papers. After it's done, you don't remember what you said but you have a feeling that it was good. You're not reading. You are in your zone. A trial attorney knows when they step up to do an opening argument, a closing or voir dire. At some point, you are doing it, winging it and in the zone. You get the same thing from sports. The only way you can get in the zone is to practice and walk through the anxiety and vulnerability so you can then step into the moment and get in the zone.

The only way out is through so you have to go through all of that. You can't separate it even though there are times you’d like to. That's what gives joy and satisfaction to the performance.

I've probably said it 3 or 4 times. It's okay. When we were practicing early, this whole, “I'm going to express out loud how I'm feeling at every moment in time,” did not happen when I was a baby lawyer. I would go in the bathroom, put my feet up, cry in the stall and then come out like, “I got this.” With the associates, every minute, they need to tell you their body temperature and anxiety level. I'm always looking at them like, “You're supposed to feel that and it's okay. You're not sick, hurt, different, weak or all these things that you're feeling. It's okay. It's a part of the process. I don't know why we picked this but we did. You're okay.”

There is some measure of comfort in that you're not the only one having those feelings. Your observation about like, “I wouldn't tell anyone that,” before is very different. Now, I'm like, “No.”

I have come to understand that it is a form of strength for you to express that you're feeling this level of anxiety. Even though I'm like, “That’s maybe a little much.” There is a strength to being able to share that. It's not just sharing. You have to understand that it's a part of the practice.

I remember one of my first appellate arguments where I was so nervous before standing up that my co-counsel was like, “Are you okay? Are you going to make it?” I was like, “I'm good.” The second you stand up is exactly what you said. You're in the zone. The second you’re at the lector, it all goes away. You’re there. Even if it looked a little dicey for a couple of minutes, it falls away and you do your thing.

They see MC stand up and do amazing work. They think, “She woke up like this.” She didn't wake up like that. She hasn’t been sleeping so she didn't wake up. She has been preparing for this moment. We have to share with the younger generation of lawyers that MC did not wake up like this. She worked hard, stayed up, relying on other people, did so much analysis, got frustrated, dealt with her anxiety and then still stepped up and did a great job.

It's all together and part of it. Hopefully, there's a little bit less of that as you go on. I always think that if there's one day when I'm not nervous at all before an argument, that's probably the day I should retire because it means I don't care. I don’t have the right. You have to have that kind of care about it that you're still nervous.

That's what they say in sports. Every great athlete says, “As soon as I walk on the court and I lace up my shoes and I'm not scared, I'm over. I need to retire. That's it.” That's true because anyone that's in the hall of fame of anything has sacrificed so much of their time to their craft. The law is also a craft. If you wake up and you don't have butterflies in your stomach, then maybe, you need another challenge in your life.

A lot of women read your show. I talk about in sports that when you feel those butterflies in your belly, that's a sign that that's a good thing. I was talking to a group of young lawyers. There was one guy, an older gentleman, who is a distinguished lawyer here in Dallas. He walks up to me at the end and says, “I want to say something. You said women have butterflies in their belly but I have bats in mine because my belly is bigger. We feel the same way.” I was sitting there thinking, “I am only thinking of women a lot but men have this same anxiety. It presents differently.”

How did you come to build your law firm? That's a challenge. It's also a good challenge in some ways because you not only need the great trial lawyer chops but you're also creating and managing a business, hiring and all of those various things. On the other hand, the upside is you get to create what you want.

You hit it on the head. I was able to create what I wanted. I have been at big law, litigation, business boutiques and minority-owned law firms. I felt like I was a square peg looking for a round hole in so many different places. There is this saying, “If there's not a seat at a table, bring a folding chair. If there's not a folding chair, build your table.” I was like, “I don't know how to do it but I'm going to build my table.” That's what we've created.

What I saw in Dallas and is probably true for a lot of cities is that there weren't a lot of minority women there. There weren't a lot of minorities practicing on the defense side of commercial litigation, labor employment, product liability and all the different areas that we practice in. That's what I do. I do all defense work. I don't do criminal or family law. That sometimes is where you find more minorities excelling in the practice of law. I'm not built that way.

I want to create a creative firm that would allow me to do what I want to do but also create opportunities for others to do it. I can't be the only minority woman in Dallas County who wants to practice on this side of the v. I always stayed on this of the v. I want to create an opportunity for that and not an opportunity solely for minority women. I want to create a diverse law firm that focuses on giving opportunities to minorities and women to practice on the side. The only way I can do that is to start it.

You can do it to some extent in some firms if you're a practice group leader and you develop that practice in a particular way but even then, it can be challenging. That's a good point in terms of, “We're looking for sustained development here. I don't want to remain one of the only ones doing this.” At a certain point, we have a sense of legacy or the future or the next people coming up. Ladder up, ladder down or whatever it is, we want it. We want to bring people along, train them and put them in the position to take on that mantle. Otherwise, it's never going to move.

I'm reading a book called A Most Beautiful Thing. It's about the first African-American male crew team out of the Westside of Chicago. I've gotten to know the author of the book, Arshay Cooper. There's a saying in the book that Arshay didn't understand about going to the boat house. The coach would always say, “Leave the boathouse better than you found it.” Arshay went like, “They messed it up. Why do I have to clean it up?” It was every day that the coach said, “Make it better than when you found it.”

That is how I feel. I want to make the legal profession better than when I found it. What I can do is create a diverse firm. It gives minorities and women the opportunity to do high-profile, Fortune 10 company work and we do a good job of it. We want to change hearts and minds about the fact that if you want to practice criminal law or do plaintiff's work, that's great but if there's anyone out there that wants to work on the defense side, we want to represent that that's an opportunity and a possibility.

That's generally a question when associates are like, “If I'm not in big law, I'm not going to have these big cases or same opportunities.” That's increasingly less true with good litigation boutiques like yours.

Sometimes, what happens is that you can have large firms. They can have a trial practice section but many people haven't tried a case. You can partner with our firm or we handle the trial all on our own. We have several firms here in Dallas that are strictly litigation boutiques. The larger firms may take the case to a certain point and then hand it off or start with litigation boutiques like mine.

If there's not a seat at a table, bring a folding chair, and if there's not a folding chair, build your own table.

How do you get that training for newer lawyers to do true trial training? That's always a question as there aren't as many trials. It’s the same thing with appeals. We used to have appeals where you could sink your teeth into it and you’re like, “It’s a finite record. It's a summary judgment appeal.” It's a good thing for a newer lawyer to take charge of and move with. Those are diminishing corollary to trials as well so how do you do that?

There are a couple of ways. One is we have a section of our firm that does insurance defense and personal injury. The reason I've kept that is not that it’s a drop-dead moneymaker but it's because I can hire young attorneys. I can only speak to Dallas County and Taron County, Texas but those are the only cases going to trial. I have my partners that handle that but we hire young attorneys because that's the only area of law that I know of where they can take a case from pleadings to trial. A baby lawyer can do a lot of substantive work on that case or back to sit at the knee of the partner and watch how you get ready for a trial.

In sports, repetition matters. You're not just on 1, 2 or 3 big cases you have at large firms. You may be on twenty cases. You’re learning through osmosis and actual practice how to get a case ready for trial. That’s one way. We also have thriving arbitration practice. Those are different skills and muscles but the same from the beginning to the end, which is getting an associate opportunity to do smaller parts of the cases.

I do a lot of labored employment work. In labor and employment cases, there are only, probably most times, 2 to 3 big depositions. I can't give that over to an associate but in a personal injury case where there's a bunch of facts, witnesses and all that, I can throw a small deposition to a younger associate. Being able to get the experience and the experience of you saying, “I can do that,” is sometimes all you need. What happens in our firm is that once the associate gets that experience on the personal injury cases that go to trial, I can start giving them commercial cases and feeding them employment cases. They become more well-rounded. They’ve built their experience up in their confidence on the personal injury docket.

That's how I think about the training for appellate too. You have to have something that you can take a chunk of, do that and it makes sense for them to do that. It's harder to find those opportunities but it's brilliant to combine all of them. The biggest thing that I see is not having that intentional, “Here are the skills you need to have at this stage. In the next stage, these are the skills.” Knowing that, what am I going to do to make sure you have the opportunities to get those skills and then build on those? You have a very practical system between the different types of cases to do that and that's needed or else the ball gets dropped along the way. It happens. 

You end up practicing for seven years and you've never had a trial. That happened to me. I want to be a trial attorney but no one's ever put me in a position to become one. You got to look at what cases are being tried. Even during the pandemic, the only cases that were being tried are personal injuries. It's like a repetition training ground to let people do that. Once they have those skills, transition them over to commercial litigation.

There are a couple of things in there. One I was thinking of was the repetition part, which is people will be grateful that they had one experience or trial but you need to have ingrained that. You need more than one and a way to have that repeated. The second thing is thinking outside the box in terms of the substantive area can vary but you're looking for the trial skills.

I have a friend out here who has her small litigation boutique firm that does very high-end work. She has hired a lot of former public defenders or federal defenders. They have trial skills. It’s criminal cases and she's not doing criminal cases as much anymore. They're complex business cases but those foundational skills are there and she has the same transition to other kinds of work for them.

I had a friend that was in-house. She was trying to become a client but I was like, “I don't do that.” She says, “You're a lawyer, aren't you?” I'm like, “Yes, but you've got the skills. You just need to learn this substance. That's it.” She's like, “I want to give you this work because of your skills.” I'm like, “I don’t need that.” How about saying no to self-sabotage?

I can think about times I've done that in the past too where I'm like, “What are you doing? There's a little part of you that comes outside and goes, “What did you say?”

You can’t talk yourself out of that. It’s crazy.

I remember one time too. I had a CEO of a company call me and he said, “I've done the research. I want you to handle this case from the pleading stage and not just the appeal.” I was like, “I haven't done that in a long time.” I'm talking myself out of it. I was like, “I've done that kind of case before.” I told myself, “Be the guy.” Say, “I'm going to figure out how to put the team together that makes sense for this.” You're going to do it. Don’t say that.” It ended up great. We won at the dismissal stage, which was amazing. He was like, “This kind of case never gets dismissed.” I'm like, “We're going to do it.”

I'm going to say this part first so people don't go like, “What did she say?” Ninety-nine percent of my mentors in my life have been White men. One thing that I tell a lot of minorities and women that come to me and your story made me think of this, is we talk ourselves out of things because we've never seen anyone that looks like us do it. It could also be someone's trying to hire us for this thing but we're talking ourselves out of an opportunity.

Now that I've gotten older, I've got this saying that I say to mentees, “What would a White boy do? A White boy will apply for that job because he wants it. He will not talk himself out of a job because he wants it. He will go after whatever because he knows that if he gets that job, he's going to do a good job at it.” We have to be overqualified for everything. I listen and then say, “What would a White boy do?” To a person, they'd say they would apply and put the resume in. It's like, “Go after it.”

That’s in the category of, “You got to be in it to win it.” If your name isn't in there, no one could call your name so you have to do that. Also, the second part is because you haven't checked off all of the listed qualifications or what you think those are for this, 3, 4 or 5 out of 10 could be enough to apply. See what happens.

You don't know who else is applying, if they're qualified or not or everything that’s not in a job description. You don't have any control over anything but if you're going to be vulnerable and take the leap, keep it moving. Maybe you’ll come back around or won't but it'll be okay. You were going to get denied if you didn't put your name in or not. A hundred percent, you’re not getting it if you don't apply. A hundred percent, you're going to fail if you don’t apply.

It's not going to happen so why not try and see? It’s having that level of confidence that you will find the way or figure it out. I haven't done exactly that before that you're like, “I'll find the right team. I'll figure out whatever. I can make that happen,” but so many times, we're like, “I don't have item 3 or 4 so I don't know.”

This goes back to sports. Take the shot. You don't know if you taking the shot ends up being somebody else getting a rebound in scoring. You'd never know what's going to happen after you take the shot. It's out of your control but good things could happen that you did not anticipate. Maybe you apply for a job and you don't get that one but they pull your resume out and save it for the next thing.

Maybe they haven’t posted for a new opportunity and they see your resume and you get that one. It could also be that the person who's reviewing it knows you're not right for this role but maybe they want to hire you as outside counsel. There are so many different opportunities that can happen but only if you take your shot.

I also think about all the different things you do to get out there, whether it's in the community or the legal realm. It's often you don't see an immediate benefit from that. You’re like, “Why did I fly across the country to speak at this program or write this article?” You think, “I don't know why I bother to do that. I don't know what's going on here.” Maybe years later somebody goes, “I remember that presentation was so good. I want to hire this person. I want someone for a case.” They remember that from years before and go, “That's the person to call.”

That’s our story. We go for members and leaders of the ABA section litigation. I remember specifically when I first had a conversation with you. It was at the corporate council meeting. It was a spa retreat. I sit beside you and we have this conversation. Fast forward, we're in contact during the pandemic. We create a guide on how to do virtual proceedings. Now, we're sitting here for this episode. If I didn’t sit down and say, “Pass the champagne,” we wouldn't be sitting here. 

That's so true. That's one of the ones where you're like, “I’m hanging out in the spot.”

Just being able to get the experience and the experience of you saying “I can do that” is sometimes all you need.

You're like, “I don't know any of these people here. I want to go find my friends,” but then you’re like, “I'm going to sit right here and see what happens.”

That was exactly it. When I went to that event, I was like, “I don't know anyone who's organizing this but I’ll go and see what happens.” For people like us who are so involved in the community sometimes, I'm grateful to go somewhere where I don't know that many people because I'm like, “I get to meet new people. I'm very excited about this.” There is a plus to that. You're right. You never know. I’m glad you mentioned that because that'd be helpful to a lot of people in terms of taking your shot and going for it.

Go for it. See what happens. You're going to be a 100% failure if you don't. 

You need to have that attitude to move forward and have some resilience too. You need to have a few of them. You're like, “It didn't turn out well but that's okay.” You never know. Sometimes, the Lord provides differently. You’re like, “I had this plan.” He's like, “That's not the plan. It's something else.” Being out there brings up more opportunities. If you're not out there applying or trying things, then the rest of it isn't going to come together in the same way. You have to take some action but it may not be exactly what your plan was but that's okay too. I love your intentional way of training and building that into the way the firm is. You're right that the best way to do that is to create it and build it.

I couldn't go, “Big firm, I need you to give me a bunch of cases that you don't want so that I can train these young attorneys.” They’ll be like, “No.” I realize I can make it profitable because we're a small firm but I can't create this model at another firm. I had to build the table.

You're right. You're crunching the numbers and looking at all of that. It's not going to make sense to do that but for a firm that wants that long-term investment in training, it's worth it. You can also arrange it in a way that it's not a loss to do that either. I normally like to ask what advice you would give to folks who are starting or who might want to start their firm too but I feel that the advice you already gave is great for people starting. I don't know about starting a firm though if there's any hard-earned wisdom that you got from that, whether it's a much more individual process. It is putting your stamp on the firm and the organization.

Another connection we have is Mike Bassett. I would say that if you're looking to start a firm, find a firm that you respect and ask them out to coffee. Tell them what you're trying to do. Soak in whatever they're going to share with you. Have questions that you want to have like, “What document management system do you use? Do you do use Westlaw?”

Ask them the particulars that you need to ask but ask them about what was their process of starting the firm. What I had found is anytime that I have asked for help, people have given it to me. If you're thinking about starting a firm, talk to other people that have done what you want to do because most of the time, they'll tell you, “Don't do this.” I'm a firm believer in learning from other people's mistakes. Learn from their mistakes. It's no reason for you to try to be making this brand new thing that has been done multi-millions of times. Ask for help.

Also, this is crazy. There is someone on YouTube that can tell you how to do anything. I remember Googling how to start a law firm and how many YouTube videos were about that. You’ll have people that started firms talking about it and people going through a checklist of what to do. Ask for help and use Google. Give yourself enough time to ramp up your business and keep your costs low. Hopefully, God willing, you've got clients that will come with you.

What I've heard from some folks is they think the client is going to come with them and the client doesn't or the client can't. Maybe they want to but they've got a 50-year experience entrenched with this law firm. You got to know those things before you take the leap. One of the biggest things is are your clients going to go with you?

That's so important. It’s consistent with ethics guidelines and all the various things you have to do if you're moving. Making that assessment accurately is important. There are those things that you mentioned that you can’t do anything about. There are those factors and elements, which factor into the client's decision-making too. Making an accurate assessment of that is important. There is a certain level of transparency and humility in terms of, “You do this well. I'd like to do it at your level. Tell me some stuff. Tell me how you do that.” What I know of Mike Bassett is that he is a very successful trial lawyer but also, he has a commitment to the culture in the same way that you have.

That's one thing that draws us. We have breakfast periodically whenever we can fit it into our schedule. What we talk about a lot is, “How are your people doing? How is your culture? I'm having this issue. What are you doing to keep your people? What are you doing to motivate them?” We talk about all of those different things. We share what we're doing and we're okay with that. It's amazing the outpouring of support that I have received from people like Mike Bassett and others in this area as we celebrate five years. People are willing to help. You just have to be vulnerable and ask for it.

It feels vulnerable to do that but people are willing. If you ask, people will help in most cases. Usually, you have a good radar about who to ask and figure out that those are the kinds of people who want to help.

If they don't help, they're not good people. If they’re not going to help, there is another sign. That’s a good indicator that you don't want them to help you.

You're like, “That’s interesting. That’s a good data point. I’m glad to know that.”

I’m like, “I’m going to lock that it in. I'm not going to hold it against you but I'm going to remember that.”

Everybody has their limitations. You're like, “I can see where yours are. That’s good to know. I didn't know or see that but now I do.” What a great-sounding word. I saw the commonality between how the two of you have that sense of care and particular culture in each of your firms. It isn't just that you started firms. It's how you've started them and how you want to maintain them. The culture is unique to each of you and your personalities. That's very important to both of you. You've both been successful at that. You’re like, “What's the secret sauce? How are you doing that?” With retaining, all firms are in that position with the way the market is in terms of retaining talent.

It's tough here in Dallas. It's calming down a bit. We had the Great Resignation. It impacted everyone. As smaller firms, you tend to take every hire, termination and leaving so personally. That went out the window after what we've been through. You create the environment and the culture that your firm is. You recruit and hire great people.

I believe everybody is on their path. When someone decides they get another great opportunity somewhere else, I don't hold it against them. I feel like everybody is on their path. I support them and I want to cheer them on. I want to be the firm that when someone leaves, they go, “He was at Stewart Law Group. He must be a good writer or great at oral argument,” because that's what the reputation of our firm is in the legal community. I'm okay if people leave, go off and do other things. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt. I'm just saying I've gotten to a point I’m okay with it.

It can be hard when you put your heart and soul into hiring and training. Your name's on the door. You feel a lot differently about that. That's an evolution to get to that point where you're like, “I have given a lot and created the best but everybody has the ability to make different choices at different times. Maybe this is just part of their path. They're meant to do something else.” It can be hard to release that. That’s an evolution in yourself that you can be proud of. You're like, “I’ve grown,” and been able to release that a little bit.

It’s maturing. After the pandemic, it's been so much on everybody. People need to do what's best for them. Despite your best intentions for them, people are going to do what's in their self-interest. I appreciate that. It's not an assault on me or the firm. It's what they believe that they need to do for their life and I'm okay with that.

That is one thing from the pandemic, whether it's exemplified through the Great Resignation or in other ways. People realigned or reassessed their priorities and came out with different ones. They realized that they shouldn't be prioritizing something else and therefore making different decisions with their lives. It's even hard when you think, “I see that decision and why you think that's a good decision. I'm not sure it is what you think it is.” I hate to see someone make an error but that's life. I’m like, “You’ve assessed it and decided that.”

We talk ourselves out of things because we've never seen anyone that looks like us do.

I have to tell myself that I am not their mama.

That's exactly it. I'm so attached. I want to see people grow and nurture them.

You see where they ended up going in your life. You feel like, “Ugh.” I'm not their mama.

That resonated so well with me. I'm like, “That's exactly it.” That's what you have to tell yourself so you don't get tied in knots about it. That's awesome. Thank you so much. I learned a new approach from you here. In the category of mentoring people and helping them, it seems like you do that with people in your firm. You have other people who are good sounding boards and have mentored you. We talked about Mike Bassett and his firm. Do you have any tips or suggestions for newer lawyers in terms of mentoring relationships or anything along those lines?

People say, “I'm your mentor,” but no one ever explains what that role should look like.

That's why I asked this question because people say, “I need a mentor.” I'm like, “What do you mean by that?” They're like, “I don't know. We were just told we need a mentor.”

They would say, “I need a mentor.” I’m like, “What do you need a mentor for?” They’re like, “I don’t know. People said I need a mentor.” Instead of pointing at a young associate going, “You need a mentor,” you need to say, “You need a mentor who will talk to you about balancing the relationship between a young associate and a paralegal.” It could be some of the most wonderful and anxiety-ridden relationships as being a young associate with a paralegal that has been doing this for years. You need to find a mentor to help you with your legal writing. You need to find whatever and define why they need a mentor.

The other part is if you're telling someone that they need to find a mentor, you should also tell them what their role as a mentee is. You set the agenda for the mentor. You ask, “Can we go have coffee?” You work with their assistant to schedule it. Normally, a mentor says, “Okay,” but you got to come up with the agenda of what you're going to talk about. You don't show up at Starbucks and stare at each other. The mentor has given you their time. You can get them your effect of being prepared when you meet. 

The first meeting is always so awkward because both sides are trying to figure out, “What are we doing here?” After that, you can figure out the cadence of your relationship. A lot of the responsibility is on the mentee but the mentee who thinks, “I know nothing,” doesn't understand they're supposed to be leading.

That's a good point in terms of what the mentee's role is. There is a certain amount of leadership in that role and taking ownership of it and saying, “What do I have in mind in terms of where I need help and the questions I have? Maybe this person can help me with this.” Maybe the mentor can say, “That's not me but I can help you with these things. This other thing, maybe talk to Pam or somebody else who's good at that.”

I've had what have been great first-mentee-mentor meetings. I know because there are hugs and, “Thank you so much for sharing,” but then I never hear from this person again. It leaves my mind because I've moved on to other things but then I'll think about it and I’m like, “I thought we had a good thing going there.”

I've had that happen too. I don't know whether people are shy or are like, “We took your time already. We can't do that,” but the value of that is the ongoing relationship, not just a one-off thing.

I don't think we could have done a good job of explaining to the mentee what the role is. The mentee's role is to continue to have this relationship because you've asked for it and I've said, “Okay.” If I'm in, I'm in.

You agreed to meet and had a good meeting. You're in so you can carry on. Some of the best relationships I've had in that or good models of that are judicial clerkships, clerking for a judge, your relationship with your judge, the greater group of clerks and the alumni of clerks. The judge is in. The judge hired you. The judge likes you. It’s all part of this clerk family. You stay in touch. At key junctures of your career, continue to ask them questions. Get their advice and get their help at certain points. In my experience, that’s the most beautiful and purest mentoring relationship. They want the best for you.

Whatever you can that gets close to that or replicates or has the same flavor to it, that's what you're hoping for. Sometimes, I've found too that people come in at the right time in your life. They may not be your lifelong mentor or touchstone but they were the right person at the right point in time whether it was to say the right thing to someone who was going to hire you or they were there with the information you needed at that point in time. There's also that. There's the longer term but then there are also the gifts of people who come at the right time. I enjoyed this conversation.

I feel full and enriched every time I get to spend time with you.

To close up, I want to ask a few questions from the lightning round questions that I like to close up with. Which talent would you most like to have but don't?

I wish I could be one of these people that's like, “I ran a marathon.” I wish I could run forever but when I'm running, I'm like, “Left, right. This hurts. Stop.” I wish I could do that.

Who are your favorite writers?

Brené Brown is a writer that I'm reading and listening to a lot. I heard a commercial from him on Morning Joe but James Patterson and those types of books. I'm like everyone else. I'm not reading any specific author but I'm looking at articles and things. I'm reading way too much that's on social media. Brené Brown is my go-to, “Feed my soul. I'm okay,” type of thing.” James Patterson is an escape like, “Get in the book. Get into the character and forget about everything else.”

Brené Brown is so interesting because it's equally impactful to listen to her talks or her podcast or to read her books. They're all different formats.

Watch her on YouTube. Do you know how they tell you to learn three different ways? It's the same thing with Brené Brown. You can read, listen and watch her. It helps you.

If you don't apply, then you’re sure to fail.

I'm thinking, “I like her too.” Each of the things brings something a little bit different but they're effective. I can think about some people that are good writers but you're like, “Please don't do a lecture or a podcast.” It’s not the same thing but she has the talent to have all of those. Who is your hero in real life?

I'm going to say, my husband. The reason I'm going to say my husband is because I called him and said, “What do you think about me going to law school?” He could have said 1,000 things but he said, “Let's do it.” Think about if he'd have said, “We don't have the money for that. You're 28 or 30,” or however old I was. There could have been 1,000 things that he could have said which at that point in my life, I would have listened to. Him saying, “Let's call the Dean and figure this out,” I figured, “You don't have me crying up in here and see.” It’s my husband, Ed. He has supported me, let me build what I'm building and come into my calling in life.

You made a good choice with your husband. Good job. When you were saying that, I had chills. There are few of those moments in life when you realize afterward, “If they hadn't said that, it would have been different.” I didn't realize I needed that, “I'm all in. Let's get it done. I believe in you.” All those things that were in that, “Let’s do it,” could have changed things drastically if it hadn't been that. I'm grateful for your husband too to see where you are and how you've come from that. That's awesome. That leads to, for what in your life are you most grateful?

I'm able to step into vulnerability. I don't know what's on the other side of the decision but somehow, God has given me that strength to say, “World, here I am. I'm going to try this.” It has zero to do with me but so many talented people won't take the chance and the shot. For whatever reason, good, bad or indifferent, in my DNA, it is to be vulnerable and take the shot. That's it.

Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party or as a dinner guest? It could be more than one person.

This is so cliché but probably Oprah because I'm one degree of separation from everyone in the world. I would also say my grandmother and my great-grandmother both passed away before they could see what I've done. I’d invite Oprah, Mama May and Sugar. It would be a lively group. 

What you said about Oprah is interesting too because you think about, “Who would be an interesting conversationalist at a party?” She has so many different connections in so many different areas. She is also a great facilitator and interviewer of those. She's probably internalized a lot of that herself. This is the last question. What is your motto if you have one?

Take your shot. I've said it twelve times. I'm always saying, “Take your shot.”

Amy Stewart, thank you so much for joining the show. This has been a lot of fun. You're an amazing person. Thank you.

It is always great to see you. I hope to see you again soon.