Episode 69: Amanda Paletz
Amanda Paletz, Legal Director of the Joseph Project
00:41:58
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Show Notes
The Joseph Project connects human trafficking survivors with attorneys who represent them pro bono to help them with various legal issues arising from their trafficking experience. M.C. Sungaila sits down with Amanda Paletz, the project’s Legal Director, who describes the Project's holistic approach to helping survivors get back on their feet. The project’s legal team works hard to build a network of providers for counseling, medical, and dental services. When the survivors cannot cover the costs, they set aside a fund to cover that. Join in the conversation to discover the power an empathetic approach to the law has in creating a positive impact in society.
Relevant episode links:
The Joseph Project, The Salvation Army, Brittani Jackson, John Grisham, 1776
About Amanda Paletz:
Amanda Paletz
Amanda Paletz is the Legal Director of The Joseph Project. In this role, she manages the organization’s legal intake process, which includes conducting assessment interviews, connecting survivors with Legal First Responders, and coordinating case management and follow up.
Amanda practices in the area of criminal defense, representing clients at the trial level (i.e. misdemeanors, felonies, juvenile dispositions), as well as the appellate level in both the Michigan Court of Appeals and the Michigan Supreme Court. She also represented clients charged with federal crimes in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan.
Due to her experience handling criminal matters, Amanda was a contributing author for the Institute of Continuing Legal Education (ICLE), where she detailed the consequences of registration as a sex offender in the State of Michigan.
Amanda also practices in the area of family law, where she represents clients in divorce cases, post-judgment custody and support matters, and cases involving the termination of parental rights. Her passion for helping individuals in difficult circumstances makes her a strong advocate for her clients.
Transcript
I am very excited to have joined the show, Amanda Paletz, who is the Legal Director for The Joseph Project, which is a comprehensive services organization for human trafficking victims. Amanda, welcome.
Thank you. It is so nice to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
I always like to highlight public interest work and pro bono opportunities in different areas for people to consider and demystify how you might come to work in an organization as you do. I wanted to start with the beginning of your journey in the law and how it is that you decided to go to law school and become a lawyer.
When I was a young girl, I became interested in the law after talking to a friend of mine whose father was an attorney. He told neat stories about trials, and it was very interesting and exciting. That was the first spark I had that, "Maybe this would be something I would like to do." When I’ve got to college, I majored in Political Science Pre-Law, and then I also picked up a major in Criminal Justice because I was interested. At the time, I thought I would be a prosecuting attorney. My goal was I wanted to work in the Criminal Law arena as a prosecutor.
I did intern at a Prosecutor's Office while I was in law school and enjoyed it. I then interned for a criminal defense attorney and fell in love with that side of it. When I graduated from law school, I spent my time working in a private criminal defense firm which I did for many years. Later, I expanded my practice to include Family Law. That was my road to becoming an attorney. I knew I wanted to do it at a young age. I do not know why. I found it very interesting and intriguing. The opportunity to help people was what I thought was interesting about the profession.
You were interested in Criminal Law, and then you have experience in the Prosecutor's Office. On the defense side, you said that was more appealing to you. What was more appealing about it?
I liked having a client that I was working with one-on-one instead of the state being the client. I liked having a relationship with the individual. I liked the idea of going up against the state and all the resources that the state typically brings to bear in a criminal trial and where the defendant does not necessarily have all those resources available. Expert witnesses and things like that are not always something that a criminal defendant can afford. I liked the idea of going up against the odds.
Mainly, I liked having a client to talk to and to help. Having someone come to you when they are in the most stressful situation of their life or at least one of them, and being able to walk them through the process, guide them, and help them is what I found to be enjoyable. That is what swayed me to end up going to the defense side of the bar rather than the prosecution side.
That ties in with what you are doing now in terms of helping humans who are in some difficult situations and having a lot of empathy for that, and looking to solve a range of problems in how it manifests.
Helping without expecting anything in return helps restore faith in humanity.
The Joseph Project is a nonprofit organization. We are based here in Metro Detroit. The project was founded by Nate Knapper, who was a special agent with the FBI. He was assigned to the anti-trafficking task force here in Detroit and saw firsthand the horrific circumstances that so many human trafficking survivors find themselves in.
I realized pretty quickly that you could extricate someone from that situation or that environment. If they have a lot of legal issues that are unresolved as a result of their exploitation, it is very difficult for them to move forward in a productive way and to have all the opportunities that they would otherwise have had.
The reason The Joseph Project started was to connect trafficking survivors with attorneys that would represent them pro bono and help them with a wide variety of legal issues. I initially met Nate back in 2018. We were introduced by a mutual friend who knew my background as a criminal defense attorney. I fell in love with the idea of helping people that have already been through such a horrible experience and using my skillset to make a small difference somewhere for them. I started volunteering as an attorney and representing survivors.
As you know, many survivors have criminal issues that are somehow related directly or indirectly to their history of being trafficked. They have many other legal issues, too. It is not just criminal but the need to have criminal defense attorneys involved is great. I jumped right in and started representing survivors. I found it to be some of the most meaningful work I have done in my years as an attorney. In 2021, I came onboard at the project as the Legal Director. My job is to connect survivors with attorneys. We have a network of over 100 attorneys in about 18 or 19 states now.
When we get survivors that come to reach out to the project, if they meet our criteria, my job is to match them with an attorney specializing in the area where they have a legal need, whether it is Criminal Law, Family Law or immigration. We see all types of issues that survivors have, and we work hard to resolve those issues for them at no cost.
Your organization is Michigan-based and works with Michigan Law in terms of being able to expunge criminal records as well. Are you saying that you assist survivors and link them up with lawyers all around the country?
Our goal is a national delivery system for survivors of legal services. We are based in Michigan, so we have a large network of attorneys here. We have also grown to include attorneys in Texas and about eighteen other states. In some places, we have more. In other places, we have 1 or 2 attorneys that have raised their hand and say they want to help. It depends on the location. There are certain areas of the country which we receive more referrals from. Texas and Nevada are a place where we get a lot of referrals from California and all across the State of Arizona, especially in Phoenix.
There are pockets of the country that we seem to receive more referrals from. We have worked hard to expand our network in those areas but our goal is to have attorneys in every state. I have received referrals from Alaska for survivors reaching out for services. We do not want to be limited and say no to a survivor simply because we do not have an attorney available in that jurisdiction. We are working hard. My largest job here at the project is to expand that network of attorneys so that we have someone everywhere that a survivor may need assistance.
How do you get those referrals? You are saying referrals come in from all over. Is it law enforcement that refers it or are survivors directly who contact you?
It is a little bit of both. We receive referrals from the FBI. We receive referrals from Homeland Security. They are involved in some type of law enforcement operation. We receive referrals from large organizations like The Salvation Army that are helping survivors reintegrate or providing other services for women and realize that they are trafficking survivors, so they will call us. Also, smaller organizations that offer residential treatment programs for survivors. It is a wide range.
It is exciting and never ceases to amaze me because we have only been around for a number of years. In 2021, I started to get referrals from survivors reaching out on their own and saying, "I heard about you from somebody or I saw you on the news. I heard you on some TV show or social media. I wanted to reach out." That is happening more and more. I am glad because that means that we are doing something right. Survivors are hearing good things about the work we are doing.
You are educating more broadly about your ability to help and what is out there in terms of being able to help people. You are having successes, so that is good too.
We work hard to provide excellence in all we do for the survivors. We have been so blessed to have a lot of amazing attorneys. We could not do the work without the attorneys that volunteered. We have been fortunate to partner. We partnered with large law firms, mid-sized, solo practitioners, and attorneys that have retired and now are helping on a volunteer basis.
We received a lot of support from the legal community. We have Federal Law clerks that obviously can't take cases and represent but they will do research for us and look at issues if I have a question and say, "Can you find me the statute in this state that deals with this?" They will do it for me. We have been fortunate to have a great response from the legal community. I am so thankful because the more attorneys we have, the more survivors we can serve.
Maybe you can give an example or describe your whole wraparound services. There is so much that you assist survivors with. Their problems can come up in so many different ways legally. Also, it seems like you support them in other ways. Maybe you can describe that.
The mission of the project is to connect survivors with legal services. We should be very mindful of the mission and try not to have mission creep. Survivors come to us, and they have a lot of needs. We have worked hard to build a network of providers that we partner with that may be able to provide counseling services, medical services or dental services if a survivor needs that. We will work with survivors if they do not have the resources to pay the fines and the costs that are incurred in court.
There are good people out there, even if you may not have met them yet.
We have a litigation fund that we set aside to cover costs. We helped a survivor pay off some fines so that she is now eligible to have her driver's license. That is not a legal issue but it certainly is an issue to her because she was not able to drive. She did not have the financial means to take care of those fees that were just continuing to accrue. We work hard to try and identify what all the needs are, the legal issues, and then what other issues that survivors may have.
We had a survivor in Houston who had a voucher for a state-run program for rent. It was $1,000 a month that she was eligible to receive for a period of six months. She was not able to use the voucher. None of the apartment complexes and places that she went to would accept the voucher. She did not know what to do. She had this pot of money that was made available to her because she was eligible as a survivor but she was getting nowhere. We connected her with an amazing attorney down in Houston named Brittani Jackson.
Brittani connected her with a real estate agent who took her around to different complexes, spoke with the property owners, and explained the situation. She was able to then get an apartment for her and her young daughter. That is not a legal issue but it is an issue that matters to her and her daughter. We try to identify what issues the survivor may have above and beyond their legal issues, and then we work hard to provide those services through partnerships that we have with providers. Sometimes we do it on our own. We help them in any way that we can.
You are going to law school and want to work in the Criminal Law and criminal defense area. Many people who work in public interests say, "That is the thing I wanted to do from the day I was in law school. Here is what I am going to do." Your path indicates that there are a lot of different ways that you can use your Law degree and your legal training throughout your career. Just because you are not using it one way at this point in time, you can change and adjust.
I would never have imagined that I would be the Legal Director for a nonprofit. That was not anything that I ever considered that I would be doing with my Law degree. I often think to myself that everything I did in my legal career prepared me for this work because I do have a background in criminal defense and Family Law. We have so many survivors that have Family Law issues and custody issues with the children that they may have lost during the period they were trafficked and are trying to reestablish that relationship with their children. That background prepared me for what I am doing now because I am able to talk with survivors to help. It is like issue spotting.
You have to know what questions to ask because oftentimes, a survivor will call us about it. If you ask the right questions and start pulling up the threads, you also realize, "They have these four other issues that they did not think that they could get any help with," but because we have talked about all these things, now I have a more complete picture of what their total legal needs are. I believe that my training as a lawyer for all those years helps me to effectively question, ask them and get to the bottom of what issues they may have. It is funny how it worked out that way. This is one of the most rewarding things I have done with my legal career, even though I am not "practicing law."
What is rewarding to you about it?
As a practicing attorney, when you help your client resolve a civil matter or with a criminal matter, most of the time, they are appreciative of the effort and are happy with the work you have done. It is a whole other level when you are working with survivors. I have never seen more tears of joy and relief than I have seen in the years I have worked with the project. I represented people that were looking at significant prison time and saw their relief when that did not happen. It does not compare.
These survivors are so happy and thankful that somebody is helping them that they do not expect anything in return from them and do not ask for anything back. In a very small way, it might help to renew their faith and humanity just a little bit. To see the realization on their face that we have resolved an issue or an attorney that we have connected them with has resolved an issue for them, and they did it because they wanted to help. I have never seen such gratitude and thankfulness.
It is cool to know that my skillset can help that happen. It is so rewarding because something that I do not think is that big of a deal, having a warrant recalled or something that I had done 100 times. For them, it is a huge life-changing deal. I am reminded of that every day. It is extremely rewarding for me. I get just as much out of it as the survivors we work with. I know that may sound trite but it is true.
I can see what you are saying but it would not have been something that came straight to mind in terms that it is also one small piece in putting their faith and humanity back together. When I look at your work, I think of it as you are helping people put their lives back together and move forward on their own. Therefore, you are viewing these people in a very holistic and humanistic way but I would not have thought that one about putting them together is restoring their faith. That is an interesting piece of it that you can see that is not immediately obvious.
It was not immediately obvious to me either until I started to do the work and encountered it time and time again. We serve women and men, too. Men are trafficking survivors as well. We serve people that have been brutalized in some of the most horrific ways. I used to believe that you could not shock me anymore. After all the years I practiced law, it was hard to shock me but I have been shocked a few times in the last few years working with survivors.
When you are working with someone that has been through some unspeakable horrors, it takes a minute for them to say, "Why again are you doing this for me? What do you want? What is the catch? What's your angle?" It takes them a little bit of time to understand that there is no angle. I am interested in helping, and so are all these people. The best part about it is to see a little spark that there are people out there that are good. Unfortunately, you may not have met them yet but there are some that are good. That is my favorite part of the job.
That is something you can be reminded of on a regular basis when you are working with people. That is something that we do not discuss enough but is important. We have to have some meaning to our work. It can mean many different ways of doing that. That is impacting individuals at such a crucial juncture of their lives and giving them a spark to move forward. That is its own reward.
I get emails or texts almost weekly from survivors that we have already completed their legal needs and we have finished the work on their particular case. I’ve got one from a woman who wanted to tell me that she was getting ready to graduate and wanted to share that with me. It is exciting because they do reach back out most of the time. They will update you on what is going on with them and how they are doing.
One took a picture of her driver's license and sent it to me because she had finally been able to get it back, and we had helped with the fines. I get these random texts sometimes during the day, and I will look at them. It is like, "That is so cool." It is so cool that I was able to do something that made such a difference in your life that it took me a nominal amount of time and effort, but to you, it is life-changing.
Find something you're passionate about and that you believe strongly in, and then look locally to organizations to which you can donate your time and resources.
I ended up focusing on Appellate Law because I liked that with one case, you can change the circumstances for a lot of people all at once if you are in the highest enough level court. It seemed very efficient in that regard. I have also served as a judge pro tem in collaborative courts, and I have seen that the other end of that, which is you can make a significant difference in one individual's life, and that individual difference ripples out to their family and their immediate community.
Making a difference one-on-one can have significant effects within the larger community and also on that person's life. Both of them are meaningful and helpful. I had not given much thought previously to the fact that the true ripple effect within the immediate vicinity of that one person on how that immediately changes the circumstances of the family or immediate community. It is amazing.
I can think of many examples of that happening to the work here. It does have a compounding effect.
What are some legal development changes or where things might be moving with regard to trafficking survivors, in terms of expansion of expungement potentially or the use of collaborative courts with regard to trafficking victims?
I will answer your first question. With regard to the changes in the law, I am happy to say that we are seeing changes. It is not as fast or as expansive as I would like to see. For example, here in Michigan, in April of 2021, the Clean State Legislation went into effect here. That was a package of bills that greatly expanded the availability of having criminal record relief or expungements here in Michigan. It is great because it has opened the door for so many more survivors who were otherwise ineligible to have criminal convictions removed from their records. They are now eligible.
There is a Safe Harbor provision within that statute. There was before, in a previous version as well, that allows trafficking survivors to have a prostitution charge convictions expunged from their record without having to wait any type of mandatory waiting period to do that, which is great. What we are pushing and what our founder in 2021 went and spoke to one subcommittee here in the Michigan legislature about, we want to see the Safe Harbor provision expanded to not just include prostitution convictions but convictions for any crime or most crimes that are related to someone's trafficking, whether directly or indirectly.
For example, we see a lot of survivors have prostitution, drug, and theft charges. Here in Michigan, it is a crime if you are in a dwelling known to be a drug house. There are a lot of those charges. It is not just the prostitution convictions that are hampering them from moving forward. It is difficult to get employment if you have theft, drug or felony charges. We would like to see the law expanded to provide more protection for survivors.
The second part of your question, which dealt more with what happens to them before they get a conviction on their record, which is more of a, "Let's figure out what is going on when they are in court," as opposed to coming back years later and trying to have things removed from their record. We are seeing more Prosecutor's Offices here locally trying to identify survivors when they come into the system with a new charge or a case. They offer them some services and opportunities to not be part of the criminal justice system but to divert them to a different outcome that is more interested in trying to give them services that they may need as opposed to getting a conviction on their record.
It does not happen as often as I would like to see but at least it is a start. We had a judge here who said that he granted one of our survivors an expungement. She had drug charges on her record in two different courts. When she came in front of him, he said, "Because of your story and hearing what has happened to you and how you’ve got these convictions on your record, I am going to be much more interested in asking people that come in front of me that have theft, drugs, and these type of charges if there is something else going on here and if there may be some type of human trafficking component to the crimes."
Having the judges be more aware of that when you see someone that has these types of charges to start asking some of the necessary questions, whether it is during the interview in a probation setting or whether it is with the court trying to get to determine, "Is it possible that this person may be a trafficking survivor?" Acknowledging that is something that judges need to do is a great step in the right direction.
It is an educational component for the judges, too, in terms of seeing how those issues can come up. It might not have been something that they thought about previously.
It does not present as obvious as you may think it is. In a lot of cases, it is not obvious at all that the person is a survivor. Unless you know the questions to ask, you are never going to find that out.
That is good progress. It gives you more tools in your toolbox to help people as well. What advice do you have for lawyers or Law students who might want to either become involved in public interest work or specifically your work in the area of trafficking?
There are a lot of organizations that are working with survivors or abuse victims. My first piece of advice would be to find something you are passionate about and believe strongly in. Look locally to organizations that you can donate your time and resources to. It does not necessarily have to be taking on cases pro bono. There are lots of things that you can do with your legal skillset to help. It does not necessarily have to be representing clients in court.
We work with attorneys who do research for us, interested in doing things that do not necessarily involve representing for whatever reason they can't with the line of work they are in but still want to get involved. There are many ways to do that. Having a Law degree gives you the opportunity to help in a lot of different ways. My first piece of advice would be to find the issue or that group of people that you want to help and then get involved. Reach out to local organizations and ask what they need. All nonprofits need help. I can't imagine anyone turning away help and volunteers. My first piece of advice is to look locally and see how you can get involved that way.
To take some initiative in that regard, in terms of something that moves you, and then finding an organization to partner with that works in that space. Some people are more receiving. Things come in, and I see opportunities listed but it may not be something that moves you. If there is something else, go out and find something that does and that you can help with.
If you give somebody your word, you need to honor that word to the best of your ability.
You have to have a passion for doing it because it is an additional workload that you are taking on. You have to feel strongly about the work that you are doing. There are so many opportunities out there. There are many groups that would benefit from the services of an attorney. There are many opportunities for that.
I wanted to conclude with a little lightning round set of questions if you are ready for those.
I am ready for that.
What talent would you most like to have but you do not?
I would like to be able to sing. I know that sounds crazy but I know many people with amazing voices. I do not, so that would be nice to be able to sing. I am sure my children would appreciate that, too. Being in the car with me when I am singing is not enjoyable for them.
What is the trait you most deplore in yourself and others?
It would be a lack of patience. I am not a patient person. I am not the person that lets things come. I am the person that is trying to force the issue, which is sometimes not a good trait to have. In myself, that would be the one I most deplore. There are more than one but that is one I most deplore. In others, it is failing to follow through. Making a commitment and not keeping a commitment is something that I deplore. My mom used to say, "A promise is a promise. A deal is a deal." If you give somebody your word, you need to honor that word to the best of your ability.
The upside of being impatient is that you accomplish a lot more because you are driving things forward but there is a downside to it.
There is because some people are put off by the, "Come on. Let's go."
Who are your favorite writers?
Fiction would be a boring answer but you’ve got to go with John Grisham. For nonfiction, I like David McCullough. He wrote, 1776 and some books about Teddy Roosevelt. I enjoy his writing. I am a much bigger nonfiction reader than I am in fiction. I never enjoyed fiction but if you would make me pick it out, it would be a Grisham novel.
McCullough is a great historian. It is very engaging.
I love the way that he writes. I could read his books over and over.
Who is your hero in real life?
My mother is my hero. She raised my sister and me as a single mother. I watched her work hard. I get my work ethic from her. She is my hero. There is no doubt about that.
As you take 1, 2, 3 steps toward the goal, you start to gain a little more confidence.
For what in life do you feel most grateful?
My faith, family, husband, children, and my extended family but the number one thing is my faith because if I did not have that, I would be floundering.
Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest?
It would be Abraham Lincoln or George Washington. I am a history nerd. Abigail Adams, I would love to talk to her. Any of those people that were there for cataclysmic events in US history, I would love to talk to all of them.
What is your motto if you have one?
I do not know if it is a motto but it is one of my favorite sayings. I do not know who said it. It has been attributed to Eleanor Roosevelt. I do not know if that is true or not but it is that, "Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission." I heard that once when I was a young college student, and it stuck with me. Going into this profession as a woman, there are many times when I felt intimidated, and I was not up to the task or I was not going to do an effective job. That saying from Eleanor Roosevelt resonated with me. Nobody can make you feel that way unless you allow them to make you feel that way. It has been something that I have always thought of when I get in situations where I feel like I am out of my depth.
It is a good admonition, and it can be hard to remind yourself of that when you are in that situation. I know another twist on that is sometimes I will tell myself if I am thinking, "I am not sure. I have not done this exact thing before. I do not know. I am not 100% experienced in all of the things that this particular role requires. Therefore, I am not sure that I should be doing this."
I always ask myself, "What would a man do in this situation?" The man would say, "Let's give it a try and figure out all of the other things that need to happen." It is a variation of that. Do not try to be perfect and have it fit 100%. It is not going to. It does not mean you can't figure it out. Say yes, and then figure out all the pieces that need to go and make it happen.
That reminds me of a lawyer that I know who I love dearly. He had a little plaque on his desk that said, "Sometimes you just have to jump and build your wings on the way down." I always tell him, "I can't imagine having that attitude." There is some truth to that. You are not going to know how to do it unless you do it. You can't play baseball by reading a book about baseball. You have to play baseball. You do not want to jump into something that you know nothing about. I would never take on a secure transactions matter.
There are limits to this. We tend to want things to be like, "I have done 100% of that. I know 100% that I can do that in the future." It does not work that way.
You are never going to think that you are ready for it. You are never going to magically say, "Now I am ready to do this next thing." You are going to have to start it. As you take 1, 2, 3 steps toward the goal, you start to gain a little more confidence, "I can do it. If I get stuck, I know that there are people that I can reach out to for help."
I was fortunate enough to have a lot of attorney mentors in my immediate area that was always willing to help. If you have a network of attorneys that you can reach out to for advice and they have done it before, if they have not, they know someone who has. Try new things and not allow other people to make you feel that you are inferior or incapable because it is not true.
Thank you, Amanda, so much for sharing the work of The Joseph Project and your journey from criminal defense lawyer to a nonprofit leader. That is some good advice at the end there in terms of taking risks.
Thank you so much for inviting me. We spend a lot of time talking about attorneys who practice Criminal and Family Law. I would be remiss if I did not say that survivors can benefit from the services of all different types of lawyers and Civil litigators. We have Civil attorneys that work with us who help survivors do credit restoration, which is a huge issue. Many of them have had their credit destroyed in the course of their trafficking. It's being able to work with them to rebuild their credit or help them get a legal name change, which is fairly straightforward so that their trafficker has a harder time finding them, helping them get a personal protection order.
There are so many areas that the Civil attorneys reading this says, "I do not practice Criminal or Family Law, so I can't offer anything." It is not true. If you find that you may be interested in working with survivors and using your legal skills to do so, do not be dissuaded by the fact that you do not practice criminal defense or Family Law.
I have worked with so many attorneys that have been able to help in many other areas. I had an attorney who reviewed a lease for a survivor to make sure that there was nothing in the lease that was inequitable or problematic for her. It took twenty minutes of his time, but yet it was so important to her. Do not let that dissuade you from getting involved. In the area that you practice, you are not limited in that way.
That is an important reminder in terms of the wide range of legal issues and ramifications from trafficking that may not come to mind first of all.
Every day, I am seeing a new legal issue or a new area that I had not considered before. There are so many opportunities to get involved for every attorney if they want to.
Thank you so much. I hope that we get more attorneys interested in wanting to volunteer with you as a result of this episode, and also, hopefully, some who were inspired to pursue the public interest in nonprofit work full-time as well. Thank you so much for joining the show, Amanda. We appreciate it.
Thank you for the invitation. It was my pleasure.