Martha Gooding
California Court of Appeal
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California Court of Appeal Justice Martha Gooding shares her career journey from litigator, arbitrator, and bar leader to the trial and then the appellate court bench. She also shares some tips on effective advocacy, the role of a collegial legal community in fostering an enjoyable practice, and the importance of running your own race and not comparing your progress to others.
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About Justice Martha K. Gooding:
Justice Martha K. Gooding was nominated to the Fourth District Court of Appeal, Division Three, by Governor Gavin Newsom on May 19, 2023. Justice Gooding was rated “Exceptionally well qualified” for the position by the Commission on Judicial Nominees Evaluation of the State Bar of California and was confirmed by the unanimous vote of the Commission on Judicial Appointments on September 26, 2023.
Prior to Justice Gooding’s appointment to the Court of Appeal, she served on the Orange County Superior Court, to which she was appointed by Governor Jerry Brown in December 2013. After sitting initially on the Superior Court’s Limited Criminal Panel in the Stephen K. Tamura-West Justice Center, she moved to the Central Justice Center and the Court’s Civil Panel in January 2016. She served as a member of the Court’s Executive, Finance, and Grand Jury Selection Committees, as well as the Judicial Mentor Committee. She also served on the Superior Court’s Appellate Panel.
Justice Gooding earned her J.D. from Berkeley Law in 1981, graduating first in her class and Order of the Coif. She earned her B.A. from California State University, Long Beach, graduating Phi Beta Kappa.
Following law school, Justice Gooding was a law clerk to Hon. Aubrey E. Robinson, Jr. in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia. She began her legal career at Howard, Rice, Nemerovski, Canady, Falk & Rabkin in San Francisco, where she became a partner in 1989. After moving to Orange County in 1992 to help start the Howard Rice Southern California office, she became a partner in Howrey LLP in 2000 and later joined Jones Day in 2010 as a partner in its Irvine office.
During her 30 years in private practice, Justice Gooding was selected for leadership roles in many legal and other organizations. She held a variety of leadership positions in the ABA Section of Litigation for more than 17 years, including serving in the ABA House of Delegates and as a member of the Litigation Section Council. She also served as President of the Orange County Federal Bar Association, President of the Orange County Association of Business Trial Lawyers, and a member of the Board of Directors of the California Bar Foundation. She was selected by the judges of the U.S. District Court for Central District of California as a lawyer representative to the Ninth Circuit Judicial Conference and as a member of the Central District’s Magistrate Judges Merit Selection Panel. She also served on the Central District’s Pro Bono Panel. Justice Gooding was a founding member of the Howard T. Markey Intellectual Property Inn of Court and served on the Board of Directors of The Friendship Shelter, a homeless shelter in Laguna Beach. Justice Gooding currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Orange County Bar Association Masters Division.
In 2009, Justice Gooding received the Orange County Anti-Defamation League’s Marcus Kaufman Jurisprudence Award, which honors lawyers who make exceptional contributions to their community and the legal profession, are role models of ethics and leadership in the legal community, and embody the ADL’s mission to secure justice and fair treatment to all.
Justice Gooding has long been involved in mentoring young lawyers and students interested in a legal career. She served as a mentor in the Newport Harbor High School mentor program for more than a decade, served as a mentor at UCI Law School, and participated for many years in the Orange County Superior Court Judicial Externship Program. Justice Gooding has been a volunteer judge in the UC Irvine Law School moot court competition and the Constitutional Rights Foundation mock trial competition.
While in private practice, Justice Gooding published frequently on a variety of legal topics. She was co-recipient of the Patent & Trademark Office Society’s 2009-2010 annual Rossman Award, recognizing the PTOS Journal article that made the greatest contribution to the fields of patent, trademark and copyright law. She was selected as one of 11 faculty for a Federal Judicial Center Patent Litigation Seminar for U.S. District Court judges and co-authored a guide for District Court judges on compensatory damages issues in patent infringement actions.
Justice Gooding lives in Orange County with her husband of more than 30 years; they have two adult children. She is a Michigan Wolverine by marriage and motherhood.
I'm pleased to have joined me on the show, Justice Martha Gooding from the California Court of Appeal, 4th Appellate District, Division 3 in Orange County, California. Welcome, Justice Gooding.
Thank you. I'm pleased to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
Looking Back
You've had a really varied career from private practice on the trial court bench and now on the court of appeal. I wanted to start first with the beginning about how you decided or why you decided to go to law school and what you thought you'd do with that law degree, to begin with.
I was working my way through college as an administrative assistant to the city manager and planning director of a Southern California city. In that capacity, I was exposed to some very interesting legal issues that the city was facing and had some exposure to the city attorney who was working with the city on those issues. At that point, as I got into my final year of college, that just started to crystallize as something I might be interested in doing. I thought if you'd asked me what I would end up doing after law school, it would be something in that area in the public space, advising cities or counties. That's what I had in mind. Never did a minute of that work as it turned out. That's what caught my attention initially and took me to law school.
I think at least even if it changes after law school or during law school, at least there has to be some kernel of your passion and your reason for going to law school, because it's a challenge. It's good to have a particular thing in mind, even if it changes later.
I think it very often does change. A number of my law school colleagues went in thinking one thing and years later ended up doing something very different. What seemed to me at the time, appealing was the intellectual challenge of it and opportunities for some creativity in framing the issue and arguing issues. As it turned out, I was right about both of those things.
Those kinds of challenges and skills can be developed in a number of different ways and different practices. You just saw it in that one context. I thought about that immediately when you said, “I had this job with the city.” I thought, “That's seeing a lot of law and a lot of interface with the public right away.”
What I didn't appreciate at the time, but really came to appreciate is how much being in the business of law, is lifelong learning. To this day, came out of law school in 1981, and I still learn new things every day, every week. That's a joy to me. I don't know that I fully appreciated that then, but I do now.
Clerkship
I think for someone with a curious mind, it's a great profession. You went in with that idea and you didn't end up doing the city attorney work at all. What did you do after you graduated from law school?
I went back east. I clerked for a federal district judge in the District of Columbia because by that point I was thinking, maybe this whole litigation and trial work would be interesting based on my experiences in law school. I went back and I clerked for a judge back there. That really solidified my interest at that point in being in the litigation world.
Clerkships are such a great opportunity. Even externships are great because they give you such a good perspective. Something that you really could never have unless or until you were on the bench yourself. it's so helpful in developing your talents and skills, but also getting that insight into how is my motion perceived. What are some good things to do in a trial and things like that?
I had not had a lot of exposure to lawyers, and certainly not trial lawyers, before I went to law school. The more I saw, the more I liked. After clerking, I thought, I had a better appreciation for the process and how it works and why it works, and when it works. I felt like it was a real confidence booster. When I came out of my clerkship, I thought this was something I think I could do. I've seen a lot of lawyering, good and bad, and that's always a learning experience. I saw a lot of good lawyers on their feet arguing and doing trials. I just felt it was a confidence booster. I walked away thinking I could do this.
Clerking will give lawyers a better appreciation for the legal process. It is a real confidence booster.
Law Firms
I really enjoyed my clerkships as well. I found them just so valuable from the work and the insights and seeing, like you said, what's good, what technique is good in certain circumstances, and just seeing so many different kinds of styles of lawyers and talking to the judge. It's just such a great experience. You got your confidence boosted and you're like, I can do this. Then I know you were at some large law firms for many years. Did you go straight to a firm after that quick ship?
I did. I went back to San Francisco. I went to law school in Berkeley. Although I was from Southern California, I decided I wanted to go back to the Bay Area. I started with what was then probably a mid-sized firm. I was considered mid-sized in those days. I think I was about the 40th lawyer at a firm called Howard Rice, Nemerovski Canady Falk & Rabkin. For Southern Californians who are tuning in, the monger tolls of San Francisco. They were the analogs. Loved that and spent many years with that firm until they asked me and one of my partners to come down south and help start an office down here. We did that and stayed with that firm for quite a while. Then we shifted and went to ultimately one and then another much larger firm. I ended up in big law but didn't really start there.
That's a good point. As the firms grow too over time even Howard Rice got larger than when you first got there. Things change.
Probably by the time I left, it was maybe more like a 100, 120. I've lost track. It became much bigger.
That's what I remember. That's more that size. That's an interesting challenge too. Opening an office and managing the office of a law firm. Is that something that you took on the challenge, but how was that? What did you learn from that?
Every day is a challenge in private practice, I think. It was an interesting group. I was really proud of what we did. We put together a wonderful group of lawyers. We grew from a very small office to maybe 35, or 40 in just the Irvine office over time. It was wonderful. It's all about the people you bring in and you build with. I think we just built a really extraordinary office with some extraordinary lawyers and extraordinary people.
What did your litigation practice do? Did you have a particular focus or some cases you really enjoyed litigating?
When I started out, those were in the days of generalists, back in the early ‘80s. You still had general commercial litigation practice and practitioners. That's where I started. I did a lot of very different things. That was, again, part of the joy of it was the variety of what I got to do. Then over time, the profession changed and practices changed. The profession as a whole grew more special lines.
Probably for the last 15 years of my practice, I morphed into an intellectual property lawyer doing a lot of patent infringement and trade secret work. Again, not by design. I didn't sit down one day and say, this is the direction I'm going to head. Things just happen that way. Practice is even flow and move in one direction and another. In part, in reaction to what's happening out in legal, that's where I ended up doing a lot of in-lawful property for the last 15 years or so.
The legal practice ebbs and flows in one direction and reacts to what is happening out there in society.
That's like a very mixed portfolio of IP as well. Even within that now, there are specializing trademark lawyers and patent lawyers, and everybody specializes within that.
I never did any trademark or copyright work to speak of. I did patent and infringement and trade secrets.
Becoming A Judge
Then you joined the bench. Tell me about that and what made you think, “This is a good time to become a judge?”
I had it in the back of my mind for a long time, in part because I loved my clerkship so much and I loved that perspective. Even as I was practicing law, I was doing a lot of arbitration through the AAA, through what was then the ANSD. I loved that adjudicating piece of it and so continued to do that even as I was practicing law. I don't know how any of us decide the time is right for something. In part, it's a mix of where you are in your career, and where you are with your family. In my case, my kids. I decided ultimately the time was right to apply to the bench. Governor Jerry Brown appointed me in December of 2013 to the Orange County Superior Court bench.
Tell me about that experience. We talked about that just before we started the variety of assignments you can get that you might not be working in the area that you practiced. In fact, most often you won't be.
That's true, at least as an initial matter. My first assignment after literally 30 years as a civil litigator was to the criminal panel doing misdemeanors what they called open trial courts, a lot of trials and motions, and then arraignments. I did that for two years. Again, what a learning curve that was. Then after two years on the criminal panel, I was assigned to the civil panel, which felt like coming back home. I certainly didn't know everything that there was to know about the civil practice and I still don't by a long shot, but it just felt like this is what I know, and I'm really familiar with that.
I did that for eight years before Governor Newsom appointed me to the Court of Appeal. To your point, most new judges in the Superior Court, at least in Orange County, don't start out where their practice would have taken them. Often, you're in family, dependency, or criminal matters, which is great because I think the more areas of law that you're exposed to as a judge, the better judge you are. I thought my two years in criminal were really valuable and have stood me in good stead.
The more areas of laws a lawyer is exposed to, the better judge they will become.
Trial To Appellate
I think that broad range of experience, I agree with that. I think that's good as a lawyer too is having different experiences that all contribute. You've been on the Court of Appeal for is it a little over a year now. Is that right?
It's actually not quite a year.
Not quite a year?
Next month will be one year is my one-year anniversary.
I knew it was close. Tell me how that's been. How did you transition from the trial court to the appellate court and what that was like? It's different. You have colleagues and there are panels of three instead of one.
It is very different. Different in ways that I find attractive in the Superior Court. It's just you making the decisions. While that has some benefits and certainly has expediency on your side, the ability to work with colleagues and brainstorm with colleagues, I just think is really wonderful because that's how I always practiced law.
That brings you back to the mode of practice. That's how I do it too. I think that's how you get the best ideas. You get different perspectives and you can really make sure you're covering everything.
I agree. I always worked on teams. Sometimes the teams were smaller or sometimes larger, depending on the needs of the case and the nature of the issues. I was always in a team environment and I love working in a team environment and could always walk down the hall or next door and say, “What about this? I had this idea. What about this issue and what's the best way to approach that?” Two minds really are better than one. Here at the Court of Appeal, three minds are even better. It's a process I like. I think you can come to better results when you have more people weighing in and analyzing. That's the big difference, I think.
Now, that takes longer. The process of coming to that final decision from the day that a case is assigned by chambers and the day it ultimately goes out the door signed by three justices, we hope by three, it's much longer. Whereas in the spirit court, again, we had about 900 cases to manage. You pick up a matter, you make your decision, and you live on because you have to in a much more expeditious way than we have to here. I have the benefit of wonderful colleagues. This is a wonderful court, very collegial, with a lot of really smart people with some very diverse backgrounds as well. We have a lot of experience that comes to bear on the issues that we address. Again, I think the intellectual environment here is just really wonderful.
We have a great appellate court and bench and we're blessed to have that. It's always been legal and really good relationships between bench and bar and all of that. I think that's true of Orange County in general, which is really a blessing.
I think that is true and I'm not sure that's true everywhere. Years ago, I was president of the Federal Bar Association here in Orange County. I went to a meeting of officers of federal bar associations all over. One of the first meetings was, “How can you persuade your local judges to support your organization and help with programming and come and speak?” They asked me early on, “How do you do it?” I said, “I just ask them. I just asked them and they're so supportive.” I think that's a real blessing for our bar here. I think it speaks well of our judges, both on the federal and the state side here, that they're really supportive of the bar and nurturing that relationship between the bench and the bar. I'm not sure it's that way everywhere, but certainly, yeah.
I've practiced other places and I can say it's different. It's something very special. It cuts across everything, whether it's state, or federal. It's just really a nice community, a legal community in Orange County.
Harkening back to when I came down here to help start an office down here, the plan was to stay two years and then go back home to San Francisco. It was partly the pleasure of living in Orange County, but in very large measure, the Orange County community, the legal community that has kept me here for one year, 33.
That's very nice that it's kept it that way. It's continued to be that way since that time. That's great. That's really good. In particular, coming from somewhere else in the state to Orange County that can or to a new place can be challenging. Integrating into the legal community can take some time or sometimes never quite work out if you haven't been there a long time. People say, “You're not originally from here, but that's not how Orange County is.”
That was certainly my experience. It's a very welcoming group. Very welcoming community.
Advice To Advocates
From your experience both as a trial judge and then appellate judge, what advice would you give to advocates about, maybe let's break it up between brief writing and oral argument or presentations, arguing motions? What's your top tip for each of those?
From my perspective now?
Yeah.
I'd have to think about whether it would really differ from the Superior Court. I think focus on what's important. Focus on the important things. Do the hard work of thinking about what facts are important and necessary. Really be very direct about where is the error that you're asking us to correct and what are you asking us to do. Never lose sight of the fact that as an advocate, your job is to help make it easy for me to understand your arguments and to rule in your favor.
That's what the advocate's job is in my view. To that end, all the facts that you recite have to be cited in the record. You have to be meticulous about your legal citations and your legal arguments because that's what's going to make it easy for us to understand your argument and if you have the better side of it to ruin your fame. Probably not that different in the superior court.
Probably not. That sounds like good advice all around whatever court you're in.
In terms of you asked about oral argument.
I was just saying it's important.
I was going to address your question about oral argument. What are my tips for oral arguments? Again, focus on what's really important, because those 15 minutes go really fast. That's the maximum argument that we allow here. Absent showing of some good cause and a request, but the time goes fast, and if you've got an active bench, focus on what's important for this argument. Listen to the questions, and answer the questions.
We're asking them for a reason. Always, always be respectful of not only your colleague on the other side of the courtroom but of the court alone. We are an error-correcting court. By definition, you are coming to us saying that the trial court made a mistake. That's fine. You really have to be respectful and not denigrate the child who may have made an error.
That doesn't seem helpful to do that. It doesn't seem helpful.
It's not helpful. It's unnecessary and it's offensive. People make mistakes. Your intention, smart, hardworking people make mistakes. That's why the Court of Appeal is here. We can fix mistakes if and as we need to without unnecessarily castigating the trial court. By the way, those were our colleagues too.
I was just going to say that. I was like, especially many of you were on the Superior Court bench previously. Keep that in mind. Also, even if that weren't the case, it's not a good way to go.
It is certainly not a good way to go.
Advice For Aspiring Judges
It never is, no. What advice would you give to those who might be considering joining the bench or applying to the bench whether the trial or the appellate court, in terms of what they might consider before applying, what the process is like, what they need to consider for the process, or even about how they figure out whether that's something that would be a good fit for them. I think sometimes people have an idea of what it would be like, but what it's really like, you might want to find that out before you apply.
I guess I have a couple of thoughts on that. If someone is actually thinking, I'm about to put pen to paper and start an application. They're in a very different position than someone who maybe is earlier in their career and thinking maybe someday. For those people who are thinking maybe someday I might want to do that, I guess I would suggest a few things. One is to go and look at, pull off the website, the actual application that you have to complete. It is a long, detailed, serious application.
It may change a little bit from administration to administration, but I don't think the core of it really changes very much. Get an understanding of the information you're going to need to compile for that application. It's the thing that as a younger lawyer, you could be compiling that information as you go. Your list of your cases and who was involved in them, the issues. That's just a very nuts-and-bolts practical thing more broadly. What should you be thinking about if you're a younger lawyer and thinking maybe someday I want to apply to the bench?
Develop a well-earned reputation for excellence. You need to be an excellent lawyer and you need to be an excellent colleague and you need to be an excellent opposing counsel. Think about all of those things. Don't burn any bridges because if you're uncivil or unpleasant, accommodating to your opposing counsel. Those are people who are going to be asked to weigh in on your application center. Take the long view, but develop a reputation for excellence. The other thing is, I think get known in your community, in your legal community.
It's great to put your head down and become the best lawyer you can possibly be. That's a given, but I think it's also important to do some things outside of just your practice and your clients so that you are better known in the legal community. That will help you. I got involved in a number of bar associations. That was wonderful because not only did I develop this network of friends and colleagues, but I also met judges and justices and was able to spend time with them at meetings and conferences and talk to them.
To the extent I had any lack of understanding about what it would be like to be on the bench. I had relationships with people where I could talk to them about. I think that's important. You need to be a well-rounded person and not just a great lawyer who's demonstrated commitment to the legal community. Think about the other things you do with your life. It makes for a very busy life for sure, but I think all those things are important.
If you're right at the point of about to fire off an application, you're where you are in your career. Some of that advice isn't going to be very helpful to you, but take time with your application and make it as thorough, complete, and compelling as you possibly can. This is not the time to dash something off if that were even possible to do with that application. It's a long and detailed one.
It sure is. I think that advice about having a fuller life is a good thing anyway. It's good for you to have all the relationships and other things that you do besides head down at the desk. It's also just good for your career in general, whether you're going to think about being a judge down the line or whether you want to develop a business or you want to develop your practice. It's just really good to get out.
Mentors And Sponsors
I always suggest that to newer lawyers. You want to be skilled. You want to be excellent at what you do, but people need to know you and they need to know that you're excellent. How do you show that by leading and serving the community in other ways? I wanted to ask you a little bit about mentors and sponsors and how they've shown up in your career and maybe how you've mentored or sponsored others or paid things forward.
I think of mentoring in pretty broad terms as a mentor. A mentor is anybody who cares about you about your development, about your career, and about perhaps giving you opportunities, and opening doors for you. I don't think you have one mentor. Maybe some people do. I certainly didn't. I think you can have many mentors over a career at different points in your career in different ways. People opening doors for you or giving you great advice. I've had probably more mentors than I could name as you define it broadly like that.
People who cared enough to take some time and guide and advise and help and again give opportunities. Open those doors for you. I think anybody who thinks, “I just need a mentor.” I know a lot of firms have assigned mentorship programs and I think that's fine. I think probably the best mentor relationships are those that are a little more organic but any mentor is a good mentor for whatever period of time that person is in your life and your career. Have I tried to be a mentor to others? Absolutely. Some in more formal settings. There's a mentorship program over at the Superparadise Court.
A mentor is anybody who cares about you, your development, and your career. They may even give you opportunities and open doors for you.
Mentoring can be part of what we were talking about earlier before I think you hit the record button, is I have benefited from all the years I've been on the bench now from really wonderful colleagues. Next door or down the hall or up the floor who were willing to take my call or help me out when I came in and said, “I've never done this before. Can you give me some guidance here?” I tried to do the same to pay that back to newer judges, certainly to other lawyers throughout my career, to give to others the benefits that I received from people who cared enough about me as a person and as a lawyer to be of assistance.
I ask about that because exactly for that reason I think sometimes people or law students in particular think, “I need to get a mentor or a sponsor and then I'm good. I've had this one person who's going to be there and help me throughout my career.” Sometimes that does happen but other times, it's in the process of that don't forget to look and see that other people can offer advice or offer things at the right time that are equally helpful. Mentoring can take a lot of different guises, I believe that too.
Also, I thought you said an interesting thing, which is that it continues. It isn't just like a new lawyer thing. Anything where you're learning something new. All your judicial colleagues, as you said, like they're really great mentors in this particular role. I like that you said that because it continues throughout your career. Also to have a certain level of humility in that, I could really use some good advice about something no matter how much experience I might have.
The other thing is not being afraid to ask for help or be earnest to ask for help. I remember years ago, I wanted to write an article about timed trials because I think they were starting to be more of a more of thing. I thought I have some experience with time trials and I'd love to talk to some judges about how they do time trials if they do. I thought, “Wait a minute. I'm involved in leadership at the ABA litigation section and in various other bar associations. I know a ton of judges across the country, state and federal, and they are more than happy to help.
I just sat down and called some of them and they were also sometimes in leadership as well at the ABA. They were more than happy, they were delighted that I called and more than happy to help.” I think sometimes people are reluctant to ask for some advice or ask for a meeting. I think you shouldn't be. Honestly, the people who have called me and asked for advice, I'm flattered and thrilled that they think I can be of some help, and I'm only too happy to help. I think sometimes you just need to ask.
That's such a good point. Also, I think just thinking about that like, “Wait, who do I know?” I already know people who probably have some experience with this, having an open mind about that. You made a really good point about the ABA section of litigation, which I'm also involved in. I think that's another good example of a really amazing bar association and an ability to connect with people from all over the country and compare experiences. There are a lot of good relationships that come out of the section of litigation.
Lightning Round
That's another good thing for someone to consider if they have immunity. Usually, I end with a few lightning-round questions. My first question is since we're in the appellate realm. We talked about appellate brief writing and oral argument, but is there something specific about appellate brief writing that you would say, “If this is the one tip I could give, this is what I would say?”
I really wish people would be more succinct. It is hard to plow through a 50-page brief that is not well organized or meanders a little bit. If you can give us some guideposts, give us, here the three arguments and why I should prevail on all of them. I just think focus, focus, focus is really important for the training. Give us the citations. If you toss in an argument, by the way, at the very end, this is a violation of due process and there's no discussion and there's no case citation, you are not going to win that point. If you're not citing us the record or you're misciting the record, accuracy is everything, your credibility is everything.
I know when I'm writing a brief, when it's very far down the line of editing, I'll read through all of it in a sitting just to see like, does it moves smoothly. Is there a point at which there's a hiccup and I'm drifting or something like that because I need to fix that? It needs to be good, smooth reading and bring the reader all the way through. Thinking about that when you're writing the brief, think about the reader, it's important.
Always. Who's your audience? Make it easy for them to read. Make it interesting for us to read.
Which talent would you most like to have, but don't?
I would love to be able to sing. I wish I had a beautiful voice and I do not.
We need someone who can appreciate good singing. You have to have both.
That's right. Somebody needs to be in the audience.
Yes, exactly. That's right. They need an audience. That's true. Who are some of your favorite writers? It could be legal or not legal.
I read a lot of different stuff. I'm mostly a fiction reader. I just read a real variety of stuff. I was on a Kristin Hannah binge for a little while there. I was on an Alice Monroe binge for a while. I think back, once I've read a book, I'm not likely to ever pick it up again. The only one that I can remember picking up again is a book called Pentimento by Lillian Hellman. It's a series of vignettes. I've read that several times. I don't know that I have a favorite. Whatever I'm in the mood for, mostly fiction.
Good writing is good writing. Whether it's fiction writing or brief writing or anything, there's always something to learn from that.
Everybody loves a good turn of rice. I really appreciate a good turn of rice.
Of course, like in whatever genre, yeah. Who is your hero in real life?
I think a hero is someone who inspires you. That's what that means to me. I guess the people who inspire me, I would be hard-pressed to say, here's my one hero, are the people who persist, who persevere in the face of long odds. Those people inspire me. In whatever, I don't know, walk of life, or business, or profession they happen to be in, those are the folks I find most inspiring. If you pin me down and say, give me one name, RBG was pretty amazing. She persisted and persevered in the face of the long odds for much of her career.
I was going to say that fits in the description you gave of what a hero is, that is for sure, she definitely did. For what in life do you feel most grateful?
My family and my health. I'm knocking on wood as I speak.
People who are with us or not with us on this Earth, who would you invite to a dinner party?
They're uppermost in my mind at the moment because I've just watched a whole bunch of convention coverage. I would love to have Michelle and Barack Obama at my dining table.
That would be quite a conversation and quite a bunch of experiences they have had, for sure.
That's a power couple.
I was going to say, yep, and that also. Last question, what is your motto if you have one?
I guess I have two guiding principles. One is to run your own race. I consciously thought about that for the first time really in law school. I thought here I am surrounded by so many bright and talented and often intimidating students. I just need to run my own race. I just need to put my head down, work as hard as I can, and not compare myself to them or compare how I approached my studies or preparation to how they did it and just do things the way that I felt would be true to me. That's what to me running your own race is. Do it the way that you feel is right for you. I think that applies in an awful lot of things.
The other guiding principle is, partly it's a frame of mind, is pretty much everything is an opportunity. It may not appear so at any given moment, but a mistake is an opportunity to learn. A setback is an opportunity to reflect. Sometimes redirecting misfortune is an opportunity to help formulate. I think it's how you frame things. That tends to be how I frame the world. There are a lot of things that are in front of us that I think are opportunities to grow and improve and help. We just need to look at them in that way.
There are a lot of opportunities in front of us to grow and improve. We just need to look at them.
The whole mindset thing and how you view things, part of your perspective is important.
I think it's vital. How you approach a problem, again, a setback, which we all have a mistake, which we all make. That's how you think about it and how you then frame your response makes a big difference.
Episode Wrap-up
Also, the other part of that is what you said earlier about persistence. You have to get back up after those and persist. That's another part of it too. Thank you. Those are beautiful guidelines, as you said. I think they're really wonderful. I think particularly for the first one about running year on race is so important, I think, particularly for those who are in law school because you're always wanting to compare, how is somebody else doing? Should I be doing that? Doing your own thing and finding your own path. That's a good reminder.
I think comparing ourselves to others very rarely does something good come from that. I just feel like being true to yourself. Nobody knows you better than you. Nobody knows how you learn, how you improve, and how you want to live your life better than you. Listen to those inner voices and run your own race.
Justice Gooding, thank you so much for chatting with me, for being part of the show, and for sharing your wisdom and your very good guidance. Thank you.