Episode 86: Sabrina Shizue McKenna
Hawaii Supreme Court Justice
00:52:03
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Show Notes
Pathbreaking Hawaii Supreme Court Justice Sabrina Shizue McKenna sits down with host M.C. Sungaila to discuss how perseverance, confidence in your skills, humility, and persistence can help you achieve new heights. Listen in as Justice McKenna discusses her journey from Japan to Hawaii, playing college athletics and getting a scholarship as a result of Title IX, and joining the bench after a distinguished law firm and inhouse counsel career.
Relevant episode links:
Hawaii Supreme Court , Hawaii , Orange County Bar Association
About Sabrina Shizue McKenna:
Sabrina Shizue McKenna has been serving as an Associate Justice of the Hawaiʻi Supreme Court since 2011. She graduated from the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa (UHM) and its William S. Richardson School of Law (WSRSL), then worked as an associate at Goodsill Anderson Quinn & Stifel, Corporate Secretary and General Counsel to Otaka, Inc. (a Japan-based international business organization), an Instructor in Business Law at UHM’s Shidler College of Business, and an Assistant Professor at the WSRSL. She became a state trial court judge in 1993, presiding over criminal, domestic violence, and civil cases, then served as Senior Judge of the Family Court on Oʻahu until her appointment to the Supreme Court in 2011.
Justice McKenna is a Judicial Advisory Board member of the George Mason University Antonin Scalia Law School's Law & Economics Center Judicial Education Program and lectures throughout the world on various topics. Her honors include the American Bar Association Stonewall Award, the National Asian Pacific Bar Association Daniel K. Inouye Trailblazer Award, designation as an Association of Corporate Counsel Foundation Global Women in Law & Leadership Honoree, designation by the Jindal Global Law School (Delhi) as an Eminent Jurist and Honorary Adjunct Faculty Member, the Hawaii Women Lawyers Outstanding Judicial Achievement Award, and the University of Hawaiʻi Distinguished Alumnus Award.
Transcript
I'm very pleased to welcome from the Hawaii Supreme Court, Justice Sabrina McKenna. Welcome.
Aloha. Thank you so much for having me.
You always say that nicely. I don't think I get the Aloha just right. There's a certain lilt that you have. Justice McKenna, thank you so much for joining the show. I'm interested in your story and your journey to the bench but you also have such an interesting personal story and your journey in life, how your experience with Title IX impact how you decided to come into the practice of law.
That's a very tangible and unique way of having an experience with the law that leads you to want to work in it. I usually say how did you come to decide to go to law school but you have this very specific experience from your school days. I don't know if you want to share that a little bit or also talk about your background before that and how you came to Hawaii.
Thank you very much for having me. I was born and reared in Japan and spent a year in the Philippines. My father was from the Midwest. He worked for the United States Civil Service, DOD as an educator at the education centers teaching Psychology, and then as an Educational Administrator on US bases in Korea, Japan, and also the Philippines.
My mother was a Japanese national who worked as the secretary interpreter for the provost marshal, which was in an air station in Hokkaido, Japan when my father was an Army officer training for Korea. That's how they met. After the Korean War, he then returned to Japan and became an educator. Unfortunately, he died when I was nine. My mother went to work for the US government. She was naturalized as a US citizen when I was a child. I graduated from Yokota Air Force Base High School, Tokyo, Japan, and decided to come to the University of Hawaii.
I came in the fall of 1974, which was the first year of the women's basketball program. My roommate who I met through a cousin had played volleyball the year before and told me, “Sabrina, they are having tryouts.” I tried out for the inaugural intercollegiate University of Hawaii women's basketball team in 1974. I made the team and then the coach offered me a scholarship.
I had paid non-resident tuition. My mom's hard work had saved money, and I was given a scholarship and was like, “Why am I being given a scholarship?” I found out it was because of this law called Title IX, which had passed. The Women's Athletic Director at the University of Hawaii, Dr. Donnis Thompson was a good friend of the major co-sponsor and major champion of the bill, Hawaii Congresswoman Patsy Takemoto Mink. That's a whole other story.
When I learned that this woman congresswoman from Hawaii had been the major sponsor of this bill, and she was one of the main reasons I got a scholarship, that made me start to get interested in law because I was thinking of becoming a Japanese English interpreter. I was studying Japanese English interpretation. I thought I would need to go to the UN and be an interpreter but that's when I decided I wanted not to interpret what other people were saying. Perhaps have a voice myself and would give other people voices that needed a voice.
Remain open to things that may not be exactly on your list or something that you would have thought of doing but also listen to yourself about what you want to accomplish and where you want to be.
People think about Title IX as opening up avenues to be able to compete and to have equal opportunities to play. Also, that component of you gets a scholarship. You have this assistance with your education through that.
People think about Title IX in terms of athletics and that was huge. There's this whole story about how Patsy Mink had to fight amendments at the congress to try to delete athletics because I don't think people realized. Some of the congressmen didn't realize the impact it would have that it would also include athletics because it's all educational programs and activities.
Her thought, the main thing was education. I received a scholarship but the biggest impact has been in education because as you probably know when Title IX passed in 1972, only 9% of US medical school graduates were women, and only 7% of US law school graduates were women. There was a much lower percentage of women were in the bar in 1972. Did we even have any women judges in Hawaii? I'm not sure we did. We may have had one but that was it.
That has been one of the interesting things about the journey with this show is that we have had some women who were in practice in that very beginning time. We are talking about the difference between their experience in the '70s or '80s in law school and starting to work or joining the bench. Compared to now, how many more opportunities and women there are in law schools? It’s such a significant change. I don't know whether people can tangibly appreciate that until they see, “These women were trailblazing. They are here to share their story. It wasn't that long ago.” You think, “All of that happened very early in the twentieth century.” It did not.
If people can remember that, any woman that graduated from law school, I would say before 1976, did not have the benefit of Title IX. We always hear the stories of RBG and Patsy Mink. She tells her own story. She couldn't get accepted to medical school in the 40s, even though she was one of the smartest women around. She wanted to be a doctor. She couldn't get into medical school because she was a woman, so she applied to law school. The University of Chicago only admitted her as 1 of 2 women in her class, the graduating class but they admitted her under an international quota. The University of Chicago then didn't know that Hawaii was a territory. They admitted her as an international student.
Things have changed and it's wonderful. Now, over 50% of all Law students are women but we still do have some issues with the percentage of women in certain segments of the bar. That's why it's important for your readers and for the young women to realize that there's still a way to go and what they can do to advance women in the law.
I think of it that way as confidence building from people who have experienced some pretty extreme things and still come out quite well and have been able to make an impact. Also, to inspire folks to say, “You can help to move things forward and pay it forward to the next generation as well.” When you were turned on to the law, what it could do, and how it might be a good way to help and solve people's problems, did you think to have any inkling at that time that you might apply for the bench or think about joining and becoming a judge?
Growing up in Japan and I didn't know lawyers. The only lawyer that I was aware of was the JAG officer that helped my mother do her tax returns after my dad died until I was old enough and could figure out how to do her tax returns. That was the only contact I had with any lawyer. Growing up in Japan, I didn't know how one became a judge because in Japan back then, you received training through the Legal Training and Research Institute and went into the lawyer track, prosecutor track, or judge track.
It's still that way in Europe. It's different. It's more of an administrative track as opposed to how it is here.
The United States follows the British system, which was, in Britain, its experienced barristers that become judges. In the United States experienced lawyers, usually, litigators become judges whether through nomination and/or election. I didn't know that lawyers became judges until my first year in law school.
My adjunct professor, in my second semester, was my professor of Appellate Advocacy. He was nominated and appointed to our court of general jurisdiction. I remember thinking, “Lawyers become judges. Maybe that's something I could aspire to someday.” I wasn't thinking I want to become a judge. Therefore, “I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that.” That's not what I do.
I didn't think that was the case for you, and that's why I asked because sometimes people think, “Unless I have been planning and setting this up from law school, I'm not going to be in a position to apply or I shouldn't think about it.” That's not true. There are a lot of twists and turns in life and there are a lot of different ways to get to the bench, and there are a lot of different times that people think about becoming a judge and it doesn't have to be in law school.
After law school, if I want to be a judge track, I would have clerked for a judge. If I have one regret, in terms of my career, it is that I did not clerk for a judge. In retrospect, it would have been so helpful, especially because I became a civil litigator at a law firm in Honolulu. I realized after becoming a Judge, how much further I had my law clerks were after one year than I was after one year in the law firm. I did get it. I had a great experience. I have wonderful mentors within the law firm that gave me a lot of exposure. It was great.
I wasn't planning it that way. I was a civil litigator in a Downtown Honolulu law firm called Goodsill Anderson Quinn & Stifel, a great law firm. I was there for five years doing civil litigation but then, I grew up in Japan. Japanese is my first language. What happened was a small boutique firm that represented Japanese corporate clients, merged into our firm, and then when the senior partner of that boutique firm found out that I was at the firm he said, “I want her to work with me also.”
From about my third year, I started doing some Japanese business and real estate type of work also in addition to being a lady litigator. Five years in one of our corporate clients asked me to go in-house and it was an unusual thing but it was a white-collar criminal defense case that I worked on with a former US attorney partner at the law firm.
After I helped work up the cases, second chaired him, and we got a judgment of acquittal at the end of the state's case, the owner of this company on who our client served on the board asked to meet me. When I met him, he was from Japan. He was from my mother's island of Hokkaido, and he thought it was fortuitous. He was like, “I want you to leave the firm and work for me.” It was a closed corporation but I'm going to be traveling around the world. This was during the bubble economy of the late-'80s. He said, “I'm going to be traveling around the world, making investments. Please come around the world with me and help me with my investments.”
Wealthy people aren't necessarily happy people. There are people who don't have much wealth but are very happy people.
I thought, “This sounds interesting,” so I did. In ‘87, I left the firm. Probably six months before I believe I would have made a partner. I left the firm to travel around the world with the owner of this company. For three years, I traveled around the world with the owner of this company. It was a great experience making investments traveling across what was then the Soviet Union, Australia, Indonesia, and across the United States, Japan, and China. In any event, it was a great experience when I was as a young woman, I was given primary responsibility for multimillion-dollar deals, which gave me a lot of confidence. It helped.
Not to mention the traveling and all of that. Especially when you are younger, that's exciting to have those opportunities.
What happened was that I burned out after three years of almost nonstop traveling and not being able to control my own schedule. Realizing that if I continued working for this company, I would never be able to have children, which was very important to me. That's when I told the owner that I would be resigning, and then looking for a different position.
There are two threads in that. The first one is being open to opportunities that present themselves to you unexpectedly and who would think that was something that you would have the opportunity to do both professionally and also personally? What an amazing experience. Remaining open to things that may not be exactly on your list or something that you would have thought of doing was a good lesson from your story.
Also, listening to yourself about what you want to accomplish, where you want to be, and whether that in the long-term, it’s going to be something that meshes with your own choices with regard to family and where you want your life to go next. Both of those are good reminders, especially for newer attorneys.
I thought I was happy with a law firm. I liked it. When I left to go in-house, I thought that I might eventually return to the firm if I got tired of it. It was interesting because the firm also did work for our company. Therefore, I went from being an associate in the firm to being someone that the partners were now I became the client representative. It was interesting.
I thought I could go back to the firm but as you say, “You don't know where life is going to take you.” As I was resigning from that company, one of the things that I learned was that I was around a lot of wealthy people. Flying first-class and staying at five-star hotels around the world. I realized that wealthy people weren't necessarily happy people. The people that I had gotten to know in Hawaii through basketball or college, even though they didn't have much wealth, they were very happy people. I decided I wanted to come back and give back to Hawaii because I had gotten a scholarship. It was the people of Hawaii that funded my college education.
When I attended the University of Hawaii, William S. Richardson School of Law. From 1979 to 1982, tuition was $650 a year. That is how much the people of the State of Hawaii subsidized my law school education. I thought, “It's time for me to give back to the people of Hawaii that gave me a college education, embraced me, and treated me like one of their own.
Especially, I had native Hawaiian teammates, their families took me under their wing. They treated me like one of their family and were so good to me. I wanted to give back to this community. That's when I decided, “I remember when I was a 1L, I thought maybe I could be a judge. I applied to be a judge. In Hawaii, we have a judicial selection and commission system through our constitution, so you have to make the list of finalists.
When I applied in 1991, I didn't make the list but I also applied to the law school to be an assistant professor, and fortunately, I got that position. I taught at the law school for two and a half years. There was another opening. The second time, one of the women that was two years ahead of me in law school and who was a judge of the court of limited jurisdiction, who was being promoted to the court of general jurisdiction, helped me with my application the second time. Her name is Judge Bambi Hifo She helped me. The second time I applied, I did make the list and I was selected to be a Court of Limited Jurisdiction Judge in 1993. I have been on the bench since, November 30th, 1993.
There are two things in there which I have found to be true in California as well, which is that women help other women. Women who are on the bench will reach out and help those who are applying, whether it's reviewing their application, doing mock interviews, or whatever. That's how we support each other to make sure we are best prepared and can put our best foot forward for applications. The other thing that happens quite often is what you said, which is to be persistent because very often it isn't the first time you apply that you will get a position. Some people that happen too but other people, it doesn't. Not to be discouraged if you are applying to stick with it.
Talk about persistence. I became a Limited Jurisdiction Trial Court Judge in 1993. I applied for the general jurisdiction in 1995. I was lucky. I made the list the first time and was selected by the new governor, Governor Ben Cayetano. From 2000 to 2010, I probably applied to Hawaii appellate, Hawaii Supreme Court, and Federal Court, probably 12 or 13 times. I made about 10 or 11 lists and was never selected. Talk about persistence. In the Hawaii Supreme Court, I didn't make it until the third time I made the list. There was a change in governors in 2011 and the new governor selected me. I had colleagues that were making lists with me and they said, “I drop out. I'm retiring,” but I persisted.
After seventeen years as a Trial Court Judge, I was nominated by the new Governor Neil Abercrombie in January of 2011 for this court. Persistence pays. I remember being disappointed so many times but being thankful for the opportunity. The fact that I was qualified enough to make these lists and that I was thankful that I had the persistence and was raised to keep trying. Japanese have to say, “Ganbare.” Go for it. Keep going.
I appreciate being able to be on this journey because my theory was that you keep offering yourself. You keep saying, “I am qualified and I believe I can do a good job,” but if someone else has selected, congratulate them and I did every single time. I congratulated them, saying, “If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.” You are coming in from the perspective you want to make a difference and you are offering your skillset. If the appointing authority believes that you are the appropriate person, good. If not, then you keep doing the best at whatever job that you have at that time. I loved being a General Jurisdiction Trial Court Judge. It wasn't like I was hurting. It was a great position.
The lesson of perseverance and persistence is helpful for anyone in their career with regard to anything they are looking to achieve. I don't think that enough people say that out loud in terms of what can be required in applying for the bench. You are right. A lot of people say, “I'm done.” 3 or 4 times, whatever it is. You are like, “Not this time.”
Be thankful for any opportunity, go for it, and keep going.
Some of that also causes people who have. You are certain that that's how you could best serve that you keep going because of that belief that you believe in yourself. You have confidence in yourself and your skills but also that you have a larger sense of how you could use your skills in service, and “I'm convinced that this is the way.”
That's what I especially want to tell the women and the young women that, unfortunately, we still have a society that is still not perfect and we have so much opportunity. Based on socialization, sometimes, we women, don't feel that we are, as qualified as we are. That article on competence gap. In my last year and a half as a General Jurisdiction Trial Court Judge, while serving as the presiding judge of our family court here on O’ahu. In that capacity, I co-chaired a committee of several judges that made recommendations to our chief justice on who to appoint as what we call per diem and you call them pro tem judges.
Reviewing the applications. I was shocked at some of the applications I saw from men. They had never stepped foot in a courtroom but thought they could be a trial court judge. Whereas some of the women, I would look at the applications and say, “Why are you applying to be a per diem or pro tem judge? Why aren't you applying directly to be a general jurisdiction trial court judge?” There's at least one woman that I said that to and encouraged that is now on our court of general jurisdiction.
I'm so glad you did that. That is so often the story of women who apply to the bench that someone has called them to lunch, tap someone on the shoulder and says, “There's an opening. You should consider this.” We often need that nudge of somebody to recognize and tell us that. It seems to be part of the stories that I have heard.
There are so many women that have said, “If I hadn't been called, encouraged or tapped on the shoulder to apply, I wouldn't have done it.” One of my good friends on the federal court here, a young judge, Judge Jill Otake was very clear that she wouldn't have applied but for judges tapping her on the shoulder and saying, “You need to apply for this position.”
That's another way to pay it forward that other women judges can pay it forward by doing that. Promising folks to encourage them to do that. It's up to them whether they want to continue, whether they want to do it and want to persist as you did, and not that they decided that something they want to do.
I have mentored and sponsored many women and tried to help them become judges. There are a number of women on our courts that I have tried to help mentor.
How did it feel after all that time when you finally got the call like, “I would like to put your name forward for the Supreme Court?” Was it a relief, excitement or everything altogether?
It was everything all together. Especially, after all the times that I had made the list but not been selected. It was one of the most unreal and uplifting experiences of my life. I will never forget the day. I will never forget that meeting with the governor. I did an initial interview with him and two others on a Saturday, and then I got a call at about 4:15 on Monday from his assistant saying that the governor wanted to meet me again.
That a call would be in front of my court at 4:30 to pick me up. I went and then I had another wonderful one-hour conversation with the governor. At the end of that, he said, “I want you to know that you are going to be my selection and I'm having a press conference tomorrow morning.” I will never forget that. It was pretty unreal.
Was your family pretty excited too?
Yes. We went for the press conference, my partner then, and our three children. At that time, the list of nominees, and then the governor was going to announce at that press conference, who he was selecting. He went out first and then said, “This is what I'm selecting, Judge McKenna.” I came out. It was a live stream press conference and was pretty exciting. The kids were excited. It was a special day.
It takes a whole village to get where you are in that regard.
I wouldn't be here but for all of the sponsors and mentors that I had. Goodsill at Otaka. Even the owner of Otaka, the Japanese company continues to be a very good friend. I met a bunch of people through him too but the experiences that he gave me, taught me so much. Especially as a Judge doing civil work. As a young woman, sometimes there would be a few older men that didn't realize that I did have a lot of experience with the business.
At law school, I had wonderful support from people. I am the first graduate of the University of Hawaii William S Richardson School of Law to serve on the Hawaii Supreme Court. The law school had its first graduating class in 1976, and it wasn't until 2011 that when we finally got a graduate onto this court, and now there are two of us, my colleague is also on this court.
That must be a good feeling for the school too.
It's important for kids to see women or people that look like them on the bench.
I had women judges, like I said, helping me. Judge Hifo helped me get on the bench and helped me with my general jurisdiction application. I had other women judges like Judge Marie Nakanishi Milks who supported me throughout the year. She was the first Asian-American woman Judge in Hawaii.
When I was a 1L and I told you that my professor was nominated. His class is an Appellate Advocacy class. My oral argument was before a lawyer, and we were given the fact pattern and it was a closed universe case with cases that we could fight in terms of our arguments. The lawyer's wife was Judge Milks. She came in and observed my oral argument.
In the end, her husband was critiquing me and she said, “Come on, Bill. She did the best with the facts and the law she was given.” I never forgot that the first Asian-American judge was telling me I did okay. This judge also has been a mentor to me throughout the years, and we remain good friends. She retired many years ago but continues to support me in the community, which is wonderful.
What a great vote of confidence in law school.
I need to tell one more story because the lawyer that was my professor became a judge in 2011. He was a trial judge and then an intermediate court judge and a Supreme Court justice but he was always very supportive of me. He would send his law clerks or externs during the summer to meet with me to see what a trial judge does. In 2011, I got to join him on this court. Can you believe that? When my professor from law school, I got to join him on the Hawaii Supreme Court. Justice Simeon Acoba who's retired now, but he was pretty cool. He was a mentor to me, too.
What an amazing feeling and also to know that, “I know one of my colleagues already and we will work well together.” That's good, too. I think about that of my friends who became judges on courts where we clerked on the Ninth Circuit and then became a judge on the Ninth Circuit. It's mind-blowing. That's how that was, too. Do you have any tips or advice for appellate advocates or even from your trial court time in terms of good tips for brief writing or oral arguments?
A lot of it is the standard stuff. Get to the point, be candid, know the record, and do your research. Even as a trial judge, I was someone that did a lot of my own legal research. If you are citing a case for a proposition, it better say that. You shouldn't cite a case for a proposition without reading it because maybe there are other things in the case that don't help your position. Make sure don't string side. Read every case that you cite and make sure that it's helping your position. Answer the judge's questions in hearings or oral arguments.
In the appellate court, one of the things I find most irritating is when one of my colleagues asks a question and the advocate says, “I will get to that.” “No. It's not I will get to that later. That's the question. Your role is to educate and help the judge or justices, so you need to respond to the questions.” You have to understand that especially at the Supreme Court level, we are very concerned about how our ruling might impact other cases and what impact it might have. We might ask questions where we ask, “What about this? What about that?” You can't say, “This is not this case.” You can't say that. You have to respond because that's our concern. It's how well our holding affects other cases.
It would be helpful if you gave us suggestions on a limited holding that would help you or your client but maybe won't be so broad that we have to worry about how it might impact other cases. You need to anticipate that judges are thinking about other cases too and how they might impact other cases. You need to anticipate the questions that might be asked. You need to know the weaknesses in your case, and you have to know the record better than we do.
It's irritating to me when I ask a question, and I can tell that the lawyer doesn't know that part. Hadn’t anticipated that and don’t know what happened below. I was lucky as a litigator because when I was at Goodsill, they did try to develop the young women litigators that were coming along. If I wrote a memo, I got to go argue it.
It was unusual because I saw many cases as a trial court judge where I knew that the associate had done the research have written the memo but then the senior partner comes in and starts arguing. I then start asking questions and the senior partner can't respond, and I said, “Counsel, I hope you don't mind but I'm going to ask your associate these questions.” I start asking associates that I know who wrote the memo. “What about this? What about that,” in any event. That's also another way to get more young women involved in arguing their own cases to give them that experience.
In the federal district courts, many individual judges have started to say, “I wouldn't have an argument on this motion but I will have an argument if you split the argument or allow the associate who I know wrote the papers to come to argue, then I will give you oral argument time, otherwise, no.” Most people will be happy to have that, so they will agree and people get to experience that way.
I'm aware that there are federal court judges doing that. I did try to give opportunities to the younger women lawyers to argue matters as the Goodsill firm had done for me when I was a young lawyer.
Sometimes there can be a little bit of hesitation in terms of, “Am I going to get some pushback from the client? In terms of that, the client wants me to argue or make sure that they are comfortable with that.” Part of that is if you've already made the client comfortable with that situation, they should be okay with it. Having the judge say, “You are getting a bonus. You are getting argument because you are allowing this person to argue rather than being some special dispensation.” It's like, “No. We get this because this person has been to argue.” That helps give opportunities.
We have an appellate pro bono program modeled on the Ninth Circuit. We made it clear and have had several arguments. It started a couple of years ago. It's for self-represented litigants and civil cases. If a volunteer attorney takes the case, we will have an oral argument so they could come and argue. That's one of the perks of accepting the assignment of a pro bono matter before our court.
That's how the Ninth Circuit program works as well and it's such an excellent opportunity. We have law school clinics that are focused on Ninth Circuit appellate advocacy. I teach in one of them and that experience to have Law students before they have even graduated be able to say, “Yes, I had an argument in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.” It’s amazing. It accelerates people's careers because they are able to say, “Very few clients want to be anyone's first oral argument.” You can say, “This person has experienced. No problem. They can argue your case.” It snowballs on the experience down the line. It's great that you have that program as well.
Traveling while you're young is important because those experiences stay with you forever. And that education stays with you forever.
We have wonderful other initiatives too in terms of civics education. We have what we call a court in the community program where we schedule oral arguments in public high schools. The bar foundation will pay for hundreds of students from nearby schools to be bused in. Volunteer lawyers will go discuss the case in the Social Studies classes.
Some of them will even have mock oral arguments before ours, and then we will do the actual oral argument at the public high school in front of hundreds of high school students. We fly to the other islands to do this. We go to the law school too and have our oral arguments in the evening at law school so that the night students can also come and the day students find it easier to come if they are not in class.
We try to be innovative. Our new Chief Mark Recktenwald in 2010, and then I joined in 2011. We are trying to get out there into the community and expose people and encourage young people. We have had at least one lawyer from our program from that program that I mentioned where we go to public high school. We now have a member of the bar that first saw us in that program.
The influence in that way was awesome. Our court does that too of sitting in different locations around the state and going to law schools. I like the high school outreach as well.
It's important for high school students to learn about civics, the three branches of government, the role of the courts, and the checks and balances.
It makes it come alive. It's not dry. They get to see it in an operation. Like you said, maybe they will see something they like and that they would like to do as well.
It's empowering especially since we have had cases in which the students come up to us afterward and say, “In our mock oral argument, I asked the same question that you asked or we can't believe how tough you were on the government on the prosecution side, that was asking tough questions of the government.” They realize that the judiciary is a check and balance on the executive.
They were thinking that somehow because you are a government entity, you would be aligned with a particular advocacy side.
It's also important for them to see women on the bench. People that look like them on the bench.
They can see the process and have familiarity with it and some pride in it, too. That's pretty neat to have that program. I so much appreciate your chatting and joining the show. I enjoyed it. You are vibrant. You are relatable. That's one of the other things too. That's why you were saying the civics education and getting out there is because people can say, “They are judges but there are people. They are humans,” which is nice to see. I end with a few lightning-round questions if you have a couple of minutes. The first question is which talent would you like to have but don't?
I can't cook. I wish I could cook. I'm not a good cook.
Who are your favorite writers?
I liked James Michener novels because I learned so much. It's sentimental, too. My father was an avid reader also. The last book that he finished reading was the book, Hawaii by Michener. I read it and decided, “I am going to go to Hawaii because his dream had been to retire teaching in Hawaii.” I like historical fiction.
The Michener. They are huge. You have to be committed to finishing them. Plus, for you, there's the family history and personal connection there. Who is your hero in real life?
It was my mother. My mother was my hero. She raised me as a single mom after my dad died. She let me believe and always made me feel that I should try anything and that I could do anything. She worked hard to save money so that I could have a better life. Not just to provide me with an education. I would go home every summer, and then one summer she was like, “I booked you on a tour to Singapore, Bangkok, and Hong Kong. You need to start seeing the world a little bit more.”
One summer she goes, “I booked you on a trip. You are going to go climb Mount Fuji this summer.” The summer before I started law school, she said, “Don't come home. Go around Europe,” and she gave me money to take a trip around Europe because she thought it was important to travel while you are young. Those experiences stay with you forever, and that education stays with you forever.
Avoid the appearance of impropriety and try to act in a way that instills confidence in the judicial system and the rule of law.
I like that commitment to growth. “You need to get a little out of your comfort zone. Here's what you need to do now.” To instill that in you early in terms of pushing your own limits. You certainly did that when you went around the world for work. That's an extension of that.
Those experiences stay with me and help me.
It means so much. It's helpful when parents are supportive in that way and instill your own confidence. It's not external. They are instilling it inside you so that you can draw on it yourself in the future when they might not be around to instill it in you.
She was a glass-half-full person, so just to be thankful for everything and keep trying. I could have gone to California, Hawaii or wherever I got into college. She would have supported me to the best of her ability. She thought it was important that I leave and go learn my own way.
There's one thing to say and another one to foster that. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party?
My favorite judge, Justice Sonia Sotomayor of the United States Supreme Court. She's wonderful. She's such a great conversationalist and I enjoy it. I have met her and had conversations with her because she visited here in Hawaii. She visited our court also. I find her to be a great justice and someone that can relate to people.
I was going to ask you, “Have you had conversations with her?” It sounded like you had.
She's a wonderful person. She believes in educating the youth and making sure she has contact with young people wherever she goes.
She has taken up the iCivics mantle from Justice O'Connor, so that's a good contribution as well. Last question. What is your motto if you have one?
It's my mother's favorite. My mother would always say this to me and it's a Japanese saying and it's perfect for me as a Judge. The saying is, “When you are sitting under someone else's pear tree, don't reach up to adjust your hat.” In other words, so that people don't think you are reaching up to steal a pear. It's something that I take to heart as a Judge.
It’s avoiding the appearance of impropriety and trying to act in a way that instills confidence in the judicial system and the Rule of Law because that is so critical in this day and age. Especially in the society that we are living in now, we need people to have confidence in the judiciary that we Judges are here to do the right thing by pursuing the Rule of Law, and I hope people understand that we are servants of the people and the law, and we are trying to do the right thing.
It's very important for that to be conveyed because we need the legal system to continue to function. We need people to have confidence in the system that it is functioning and that the Rule of Law exists. All of that is very important. How do you think you can instill that sense in people?
We have to keep doing the right thing and upholding the Rule of Law. As you've mentioned, Civics education is different from many years ago. When I went to high school, my US military school, I took a course in US government. There used to be the US government. They used to be a democracy, the courses on Democracy. They used to be courses in Civics Education.
Much earlier and more consistently.
People are not being taught for people to think that judges are not an arm of the executive or legislative branch. We are independent. We are a check and balance between the executive and legislative branches. We will be based on the Rule of Law and we are human, so it is important to have representation on the bench. It is important to have different ideas and perspectives on the bench.
We, Judges, educate each other. I hope people understand that. We need to get out there and expose people to what we do more if the high schools are not going to teach Civics. If they are not, we need to get out there and do what we can, not just judges but lawyers. When people make comments, suggesting the judges are not doing are acting other than through the evidence and the law, then it's important. We need for the bar to step up in the need for people or citizens to step up and support the judiciary and understand that judges are trying to do the right thing.
That's something that our local bar, the Orange County Bar Association is always historically done when there are tough decisions. Decisions that are politically unpopular. We always stand up because it's important to you to stand up for the bench and the judge. You might disagree with that but this is our system. They are independent. They need to have that independence. We stand up for judicial independence. That's an important role of the bar to do.
Thank you very much, especially because, in California, judges have to run for election for retention. Fortunately, we don't have to, so we are fortunate in that regard. We go back to the commission for retention. The commission understands that we have to make tough calls and politically unpopular decisions. We have to go through that.
For this, wherever retention and the public's perception matter both for how the rulings from the venture are perceived but also for people who shouldn't suffer unnecessarily later on for something that wasn't popular. I have enjoyed this. Thank you so much, Justice McKenna. I appreciate you having this discussion.
I'm enjoying this also and thank you for doing this and for exposing our community to the women in the law. Thank you so much for doing this. It has been an honor and pleasure to be with you.
The honor is all mine. Thank you so very much.