Episode 81: Karen M. Ashby
Former Colorado Court of Appeals Judge
00:50:51
Subscribe and listen on…
Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Spotify | Google Podcasts | Amazon Music | PocketCasts | iHeartRadio | Player.FM Podcasts
Watch Full Interview
Show Notes
Host MC Sungaila sits down with retired Colorado Court of Appeals Judge Karen M. Ashby to discuss her trailblazing career as the first Black woman to be appointed to that court. Judge Ashby shares valuable insights from her experiences as a public defender, trial court judge, and appellate judge. She describes how her path has paved the way for others, and how judges' diverse experiences contribute to decision making.
Karen M. Ashby
Judge Karen M. Ashby was appointed to the Colorado Court of Appeals in December, 2013 and retired from that court in May, 2019. When she was appointed to the Colorado Court of Appeals she was the first, and remains the only, African-American woman to serve on any appellate court in Colorado. Before that, she was the first African-American woman appointed in the state judicial system in Colorado when she was appointed to the Denver Juvenile Court in 1998.
Judge Ashby served as the Chief Judge of the Denver Juvenile Court for more than 15 years-the only African-American woman who has served as a Chief Judge in Colorado. Judge Ashby has chaired many Colorado Supreme Court committees including the Juvenile Rules Committee and the Colorado Court Improvement project. She served for eight years as a member of the Board of Directors of the National Council of Juvenile and Family Court Judges (NCJFCJ) and chaired NCJFCJ’s Diversity Committee for several years. Judge Ashby earned her bachelor’s degree from Williams College, and was awarded the college’s Bicentennial Medal in 2009 in recognition of her judicial efforts to improve how courts handle juvenile and family law cases. She received her J. D. from The University of Denver, Sturm College of Law.
Transcript
In this episode, I'm very excited to have join us, Karen Ashby, who is now enjoying her retired life, but previously was on the Colorado Court of Appeals and also was Presiding Judge of the Juvenile Court in Colorado as well. Welcome, Judge Ashby.
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
I'm always interested in hearing the career, professional and personal stories of women who are currently on the bench and those who are no longer on the bench but were pioneers in different ways in terms of their judicial service. I wanted to go back to the beginning a little bit in terms of why and how law to begin with. How did you decide you wanted to go to law school and when did you think you could accomplish through the law?
I wrote an article for the Colorado Bar Association Publication a few years ago called My Meandering Path to the Bench because, unlike so many inspiring stories I have heard, it's not as though I thought as a child,” I want to go into law. I want to be a judge.” I plowed forward in that direction. I had a lot of interest in criminalistics, criminal forensic science, and those things.
I went to law school thinking that I was going to major in Chemistry and become a forensic chemist, but then I realized that I wasn't very good at Chemistry and I didn't like it all that much. I changed course. I enrolled in Spanish Literature and took a year off to figure out, “What am I going to do from here?” What I realized drew so many of my interests to gather was criminal law.
I was waiting tables in England and decided to take the LSA T over there and I applied to law schools to become a criminal defense attorney. That's what I did. My career developed from there. I didn't go into the law thinking that I wanted to be a judge, but over time, I thought a lot about how I enjoyed very much advocating for one side or another but being in a position where I could make decisions and do what I thought was the best thing to do at a particular case and to achieve the best outcome. Having heard from the various advocates, it started appealing to me, so I began applying to become a judge.
It's inspiring in its own way when you can say as a judge, “This wasn't something I had dreamed of all my life and had planned all along.” Sometimes people think, “I'm too late. I didn't think about it very early and now, there's nothing that can be done.” I think there's something like, “No. It's not too late,” if it wasn’t your childhood dream, whether it was to become a lawyer or a judge. Also, recognizing in that story that we evolve as people and professionally. To not be afraid to make changes, reach out, or do new things that maybe you hadn't considered. As you said, you hadn't considered becoming a judge, but as you did the work that you did, you said, “I think I would be good at this job too and I can contribute in ways that would be satisfying.”
I think it worked out best the way that it did for me. I loved my career as a criminal defense lawyer. I did some family law and ultimately, I became very interested in juvenile law. That's ultimately where I went on to the bench. I did three and a half years, halftime in municipal court in a city near Denver and got a taste of doing juvenile cases as a judge there. An opening came up in Denver Juvenile Court and I applied. I was lucky to be appointed to that position and stayed there for fifteen and a half years before moving to the Court of Appeals.
There are different levels of court that you can contribute to as a judge and serve. Sometimes you can have a path from one to the next. A judicial career isn't just one location. I'm curious though, when you said you were part-time in that particular role. Is that something that the judges would appoint you to, like a commissioner or a judge pro tem role?
Be in a position where you could make decisions and do what you think is the best thing to do.
It was a halftime position in that particular court that was open. The city council of that jurisdiction appointed me. What I did was flip-flopped week by week. I was a judge for one week and then I had my law practice that I would do the next week. During the week, I always had to schedule trials and other activities that I needed to do as a lawyer that I wasn't serving as a judge. It was a little challenging doing that for three and a half years and it explained so much about why I am a little wonky.
Switching from the judicial decision-making role to the advocate, back and forth and scheduling-wise between your cases. I'm curious about how because it varies from state to state and court to court whether you're appointed or elected or who appoints you. That's why I wanted to ask about that too in terms of the part-time. I've only ever heard of that in the federal magistrate judge context. Some situations where we only have enough work, room, funding or something for a part-time magistrate judge, so they do that, but I hadn't heard of that at the state level.
At the municipal level, they have it. In different jurisdictions, we call them referees, commissioners or magistrates. Those roles may be full-time or something less. Also, in rural jurisdictions in some states, they don't have enough business, especially in county courts for a full-time. They may have halftime positions that are available. It varies depending upon the jurisdiction and the needs of that particular jurisdiction as to how it's structured. In our state court system in Colorado, we have the same appointment nominating and appointment process for county court judges, district court judges and appellate court and Supreme Court judges.
I would say one of the things that some advocates have trouble with is switching from advocacy to the judicial role. Sometimes, there's some wistfulness about not being able to do that anymore and saying, “Maybe if I had known this, I might've waited to become a judge.” I'd have my fill of advocacy prior to that. Having that part-time mix, you got to do both at the same time and decide, “I'd like this. I'm experiencing this and I like both things, but I'd like to do this full-time as well.
I liked the system improvement aspect of being a judge. It’s not only handling the individual cases and getting to make decisions that I thought were helpful to the parties in a particular case. I also enjoyed doing the system improvement part of it because as a judge, you have such a leadership role that you can play, which even though you can be very active as an attorney, there's much more that you can do as a judge to move forward improvements in the system. Also, try to address the individual cases and, on a broader scale, figure out ways to benefit the community better by the way the courts are handling them.
That is reminiscent of things that Judge Joanne Motoike, the Head of the Juvenile Court here in Orange County, California, mentioned. Especially in the Juvenile Court, there are a lot of opportunities to meet with stakeholders and figure out the improvements in the system and for better outcomes for the community and the individuals.
Chief Justice Bridget McCormack from the Michigan Supreme Court mentioned the systemic access issues and things that you can do at her level because she's talking about the administration of the court system statewide and are there different ways that we can do it that will ensure access or put systems in place that will impact the entire judicial system. What you're saying echoes both of those in combination and that's something that people don't always think about in terms of what you can accomplish as a judge. Certainly, there's the convening power, the leadership of that. If you want to have a conversation about something, people usually will participate and you can bring stakeholders together. Also, this larger question of, “Yes. I'm deciding the cases in front of me, but also, I have authority to figure out, should we be doing something different just across a number of cases?”
I was lucky because when I went to Denver Juvenile Court, I was only there for approximately seven months before I became the chief judge of that court. As chief judge, I certainly similar to what Justice McCormack was stating had the ability to not only impact those cases that were within my own division but across our entire court system. Her juvenile court was the only juvenile court in the State of Colorado that was a separate constitutional court.
Many other jurisdictions within Colorado were looking at what Denver Juvenile Court was doing to improve how we were handling cases that came through the juvenile court system, so I was able to participate and influence those other jurisdictions. Also, establish committees where we could work on those things statewide because I certainly wasn't the only person who had ideas or thoughts on how we might change things. Connecting with people across the country who were doing similar work and looking for ways to improve and helping each other figure out what's working, what's not working or are there some other things that we might do to get better outcomes?
That's an important thing to highlight because people don't always think about deciding the individual cases, but there's also, especially at the presiding judge level, you have the opportunity to deal with a lot of other aspects of cases in court administration that makes a difference in people's lives. It’s an element if people want to serve of recognizing the ways that you can serve as a judge.
I enjoyed doing that a lot and I also think that helped keep me from getting burned out because I was in juvenile court for fifteen and a half years. Many people would say, “How can you do that job every day and see the types of cases?” Part of it was I enjoyed working with individual people in those cases, but also, as I said before, moving beyond those individual cases and looking more broadly and looking at it from a system improvement standpoint helped keep me energized and getting burned out.
I also have done pro temming. I was a judge on our collaborative courts, which is our way of bringing together a number of different aspects like mental health, homelessness and all of that together to divert from the primary kind of criminal justice system. Also, make sure that people have an opportunity to get their lives and families back together to come back to being part of the community in a positive way. One of the ways those are set up is because it can be as a judge and what you said reminded me.
As the judge in this situation, you can get very discouraged when you see many people come through and you're like, “I don't know if I'm making a difference. I want to have an impact. I'm not sure all the time that I am.” You can get a little bit burned out from that. The judge who put together the first collaborative court program in Orange County said, “We need people every day. We need to see people at different phases of the process because if we don't see the successes, we'll get burnt out and be concerned.” We drop in the bucket, “Are we doing anything that will make a difference?”
We are just cogs in a wheel and we're not having a positive impact because I always thought that, especially in family courts, therapeutic jurisprudence is what we were trying to achieve, which was we were trying to have people leave with the court has been a benefit to them in terms of intervening in their lives. It can get very discouraging when you see those cases where that's not happening, especially if you're in the same jurisdiction for a long period of time and handling the same types of cases.
I did occasionally see children of children whose cases I had handled who are now coming before me. It keeps you motivated to figure out how we can do things better? Also, to recognize that the court system is not the place that can fix all these problems and how the court system needs to be connected to the community and help people understand what it is you're seeing in the court system. How some changes might need to occur in the broader community in order to mitigate the concerns and issues of the families and children that we are seeing come into our system.
It shows a peer, but it's a set of holistic problems and factors that come together that lead to that or perpetuate that. Sometimes the way to work with the legal end is to say, “What else can we do here because the law doesn't have the direct answer to that?” I interviewed the legal director for the Joseph Project, which is a human trafficking organization. In terms of their efforts, they say the same thing. That our efforts are very holistic legally in terms of there might be criminal conviction issues for these people. There might also be bankruptcy or debt issues. There might be a whole range of things.
You can do much more as a judge to figure out ways to better benefit the community.
Even getting a driver's license or things like that and family law issues. Yes, this is the problem, but there are a lot of other legal problems. There are a lot of other problems that aren't legal that are related to that in order to help restore someone and allow them to move forward. There are a lot of moving parts.
That's why we needed to take the blinders off and look more broadly to recognize that we have a piece of this. We can influence certain aspects of this and should try and do so as broadly as possible. A lot of it, too, was having conversations with the other systems, places and structures in our society that might need to also take a look at themselves in ways that they could be doing things better and for all of us to work together to try and lessen the challenges that a lot of families and children are facing.
That is a long time in that particular role and you then moved to the Court of Appeals. How was that and what did you enjoy about that position?
I wasn't looking to leave. I saw an email come across my computer and it was for an opening at the Colorado Court of Appeals that was coming up. I remember forwarding it to my husband and saying, “Hmm.” I don't know what it was at that moment that sparked my interest. I hadn't done appellate practice in a long time. I had done quite a bit in my criminal defense practice, but I started thinking about it.
Again, part of what drew my attention was recognizing that on the Court of Appeals, I could help, even though I wouldn't be in the same position at the Supreme Court, which has a greater role in doing that. I could help impact the law in a broader way than I could by simply staying in the trial court as a handyman handling individual cases. Even though I was doing those system improvement efforts from the legal standpoint and development of the law, I thought it would be really interesting to have that opportunity on the Court of Appeals.
I did some research, though, because I wasn't sure going from a trial judge and being an appellate lawyer whether doing appellate law exclusively was what I wanted because I loved working with people. I knew by moving to the appellate court. I was removing myself one step further from speaking to individual litigants, working with kids and working with families. I talked to a lot of trial judges who I knew who had been on the Court of Appeals and decided that, “Yes, this was something I wanted to do.” When I went on the Court of Appeals because the person whose spot I took had been a trial judge, she transitioned off. I was then the only trial judge in the appellate court for several years while I was there.
I loved the intellectual challenge of it. I also enjoyed the collaborative decision-making, which wasn't something I was doing as a trial judge because I was the one sitting on the bench and making decisions. It was a luxury on the Court of Appeals that I didn't have as a trial judge when we had a case before us to talk it through. That's where the other judges in my division for a particular case, “What do you think about this? This is where I'm thinking. This is what I think the law says. It doesn't appear as though we have developed a law that covers this situation.” That back and forth and that collaborative decision-making was nice. At the Colorado Court of Appeals, we had great collegiality and collaboration. It was a great place to work.
That is the big difference between a trial court and a Court of Appeal. You're the lone maker, but you see a lot more people. On the appellate court, you have the pleasure of colleagues and you get to bounce ideas off them, but you're more removed from the litigants that you're deciding cases. Those are the trade-offs.
It was nice being a trial judge there and giving people some perspective for those who hadn't been trial judges when they were deciding a case and writing an opinion. Oftentimes I could say, “I think it would be helpful to the trial judges if you included a little more of this or a little more of that.” That practical experience of being a trial court judge helped me understand things that I might do when writing opinions. Also, explaining some things to other judges on the appellate court as, “When you do it this way, it might be less helpful than if you add a little more analysis and describe exactly how we got to this point,” which may be more broadly applicable for trial court judges. Providing them a roadmap, for instance, on how to deal with this issue when it comes up.
I know I've seen some of that on our state jury instructions committee. We have a mix of judges and practitioners on that. It's nice to have the trial judges' insight when they say, “We could use some guidance on this. Could we have a note about this that would help us apply it in different circumstances?” You've been both an advocate now and a trial judge. When you're reading the record, I would think that you would bring that experience to the record and maybe see things in what's going on that somebody who didn't have the trial experience wouldn't see it the same way.
I found it interesting because when I would be reading the record, I was there in the courtroom and could easily visualize how this was playing out in the courtroom. That's something that if you hadn't been in that role, it’s not that you can't dissect and understand the record in a meaningful way, but I think it was a different way that I saw the record. It was animated when I was reading it and I could see the judge there. I could picture the parties, the witness and how it was playing out in the courtroom.
That's another example of the diversity of experience on the bench when you have those who have been on the trial bench, those who may not have been on the trial bench, but together you're bringing your different experiences to it. I have the same experience when I'm reading a record as an appellate lawyer. Now having done trial work and litigation, I'm like, “I got the players. I've got it all organized.” I don’t think people who go straight into appellate have the same thing of figuring out. When I see that, I think like, “What's going on here? What are the personalities?” If something is going on with a witness, I can glean that from the transcript. I know that many people have talked about mentors, sponsors, and people who've helped them, given them a nudge in terms of applying for the bench or in their careers and in other ways, as practicing lawyers. Do you have any, you know, sort of good mentoring stories in that regard or what that looked like in your career?
I do. I clerked for a district court judge in Denver when I was in law school and I loved watching him work. He was a very well-respected judge, a wonderful person and a judge. He gave me a lot of guidance and advice. Frankly, the challenge for me within the legal system was when I was appointed to the Denver Juvenile Court. There were no African-American women in the state judicial system in Colorado. A good friend of mine, Claudia Jordan, had been appointed to the Denver County Court. The Denver County Court was appointed by the mayor of Denver and it was a very diverse place.
It did a better job of reflecting the diversity of the community on its bench. In the state judicial system, I was the only African-American woman the entire time that I was on the juvenile court bench and the first. They had never had one before. When I went to the Court of Appeals, I was the first and the only African-American woman and African-American on any of the appellate courts in Colorado.
I didn't have those who had that judicial experience who were women of color, at least African-American, who could give me some of that guidance. I did have other women, though and women, in general, had experienced some similar things to what I was experiencing as I went on the bench. I was able to look to them and use them as mentors to help me.
I think it's important for anyone coming on the bench to become connected to someone who can mentor them because it is a different job. Even if you're well-versed in the law and advocacy, becoming a judge is a very different beast. Sometimes it seems very intuitive and sometimes it doesn't. Having connections to those people who can help you navigate through that and you can bounce things off of is important.
The court system needs to be connected to the community as a whole.
Even if you and I have had judicial clerkships out of school, it still is so different being in the judicial role yourself. Yes, it's a huge learning curve, so it's good to have people who can help you along the way. I'm so surprised about what you were saying about the Colorado courts at the time that you were appointed both in the juvenile court and in the Court of Appeal. That's not something that I would expect to hear.
It's changed and it's been through the efforts of a lot of us over the years. I believe in 2012, there may have been a county court judge who was appointed in one of the jurisdictions in Colorado, but there wasn't a district court judge appointed until 2014. Our current governor has appointed a number of African-American women in different jurisdictions around the state. We now have nine, which is wonderful.
That's a tremendous change from your experience.
Since I left the Court of Appeals, we don't have an African-American judge on the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court at this time, male or female.
Were you able to provide some mentoring to the judges who have come in since the wave of appointments?
Yeah, and I enjoy doing that. I don't insert myself when I'm not invited because I don't want to assume that they need my assistance. Many of them don't, but it's helpful sometimes when people reach out to understand how their experiences may compare and hear how other people are dealing with different issues and experiences that are unique to women or women of color. I do some mentoring.
The Colorado Judicial Branch has asked me to mentor a few judges and magistrates and I love doing that. Now that we're more remote, it's helped since I'm in Mexico for a few months during the year. Developing those relationships with women in the judiciary and I'm open to mentoring men as well, but I haven't been asked to do that. It's necessary, important and fun.
You have, in particular, such a wealth of experience across the different parts of the judiciary, which seems like you'd have good insight to assist people with how the different levels operate and interact and have a broader experience on the bench than others might have.
It has been helpful. I've been through a lot.
It's nice to talk to those who have walked where you're walking now. You have a little wider perspective, like, “Watch out for that. I didn't think about that, but you should.” When you're learning a new job like that, sometimes it's one foot in front of the other. If someone can give you a heads up, you might think about this a few steps ahead.
Some of those feelings you're having right now, there's nothing wrong with you. That's very normal to feel that way.
I would think, especially in the very beginning, it's so challenging. You want to do the right thing and you're also on this huge learning curve.
There are a number of judges now who have come on board during COVID. Many of them haven't even had the opportunity to develop those personal relationships with their colleagues in the way that we normally would expect and that's been challenging.
That's something that everyone's been experiencing, but particularly, yes, I think that would be challenging as a new judge coming in and not being able to say, “I can just go down the hall and ask this question.” Being much more intentional about reaching out to people can be a challenge.
It’s a virtual hallway now.
We're all adjusting to that. On the other hand, in some ways, it's more accessible online. I try to look at the silver lining of this to you, Judge Ashby.
It’s important to develop the necessary legal skills to have a good reputation.
There are definitely some things that courts will and hopefully, will maintain after COVID, especially for short appearances and things like that, so that people don't have to travel and get time off from their job for half a day or all day to go down to the courthouse. Those kinds of things have opened our eyes to, “There are some other ways that we could be doing this that allow access in a much easier way.”
It’s the least disruptive to people's lives overall. If you have to take off half of your day of work, you might not pursue your case or you might not do that because, “It's too hard. The downsides of doing it are too much.” We started that several years ago with the telephonic appearances, court calls and things like that, but it's so much better to have the video also. It's nice to have that and I hope that the courts do continue that for some things because it is helpful for litigants. You mentioned the district judge that you worked for. Are there other judges that you admire and what do you admire about them?
The judges I admire and there are so many in different roles that I hate to try and single one out because those I admire who aren't specifically mentioned might think, “What about me?” People who have great knowledge of the law and apply the law well are important, but the judicial temperament and those who take the time to let people who are appearing in the court feel as though they've been heard make such a difference.
Even if we're not ultimately resolving the case in their favor, letting them know that we heard them and explaining to them, “This is why I'm deciding the case in the way that I am,” citing both the factual issues are and record, as well as what law is applicable. It's been so helpful to me to have those judges who have that ability to do the legal part well but also handle the people part well because sometimes we get hung up in making sure that we're reaching the right legal conclusion and explaining that, especially for appellate courts and others.
Also, recognizing that not everybody is well-versed in the law who's coming into the courtroom and it's a very stressful experience. Being able to lower the temperature, help them feel more comfortable and help them understand more what's going on, especially now that so many self-represented litigants from the trial court level all the way up through appellate courts, it becomes more important. Those judges who have helped me understand and learn how to do that better have been invaluable in my career.
That people aspect, as you mentioned, especially at the trial court level, but making sure that people understand the process of the decision-making and that you've heard what they've said and here's why. There is a certain amount of transparency in the decision-making process and empathy for those who are there in front of you. There are lots of different things to think about when you're there making the decisions, the law, the record and all of these. What findings I need to make and all of that stuff, but also to not forget about the people part of it.
It’s the human element of each case. It's not just a case.
It's not just a legal issue. There are people.
There are people behind those legal issues and they will be impacted by what you do and helping them understand that you know that and you, to the extent it was appropriate, took that into account or at least understood that the legal decision you were making might have a significant impact on their lives and the work being dismissive of that.
That can be important because, in many situations, it may be their only encounter with the judicial system as well. It’s that and maybe jury service. That's their whole impression because that's the only thing they've seen and that it's important for people to feel their justice system is working. That's a great observation. People don't always think about that. That's another part of your role as a judge. After your retirement, have you thought about doing any kind of mediation or anything after leaving the bench or are you, other than mentoring, out of business, at least for now?
I'm not out of the business because I'm still involved in a number of committees and system improvement efforts. Committees within Colorado and some committees with other judges across the country. I like that, so I'll stay involved in that. I haven't decided to do mediation or arbitration or senior judging at this point.
Part of it is I'm enjoying being retired and I recognize that even if I do a small percentage of cases per year, there's still a lot of time you need to put in other than just handling those cases to stay up on legislation and the law. I have so many other things going on right now that I felt were going to pull away from a lot of the other things that I'm enjoying doing in retirement if I were to do those legal parts well. That's something that could happen down the road, but it wasn't something that I've decided to do at this point.
What kind of advice or tips do you have for people who might be interested in applying or joining the bench?
It's important to develop the necessary legal skills and have a good reputation. As you're advocating, make sure that you're not burning many bridges along the way and that the reputation you develop in the legal profession is a solid and positive one with other attorneys, judges, court staff, and other system stakeholders. All of that is important. Your integrity and temperament are exhibited as an advocate because people wonder, when you become a judge, what kind of judge are you going to be? What kind of temperament are you going to have?
It's important to be involved in bar activities, but it's also important not just to be involved in the legal community, but to be involved in your community, the non-legal community. How are you connected to that? If you become a judge, you are serving the community. Having that history experience of being engaged in community activities is very important. Don't get discouraged if you apply and you aren't selected the first time. Different jurisdictions have different ways that judges are placed on the bench through elections, nominating or otherwise. It's not always common for people to get on the bench the first time they try.
When you do try, try and get as much information as you can as to how people thought that you did through the process and ways that you can improve. When you're doing your application or when you're preparing for an interview, test that out on people. Have people give you questions that you anticipate getting during your interview so that you can start to feel at ease answering the questions. You can think through and articulate answers to the questions without being too long. Those are important things.
Get as much feedback as you can so you can improve.
I'm glad it was a long answer because it was comprehensive. Those are all of the things that I can think of in terms of what I've seen in terms of those who have joined the bench and been successful in doing so, both in terms of having people help them prepare for interviews and what kinds of questions just like you would be mooting for an appellate argument or something like that. Also, that idea of service always looks surprising, shall we say, if somebody hasn't done anything at the bar level or community level and has zero call to service until suddenly, “We're applying to be a judge.”
It doesn't match. You're saying, “What's going on here?” Serving in different ways and that can look a lot of different ways, not just the bar association. Other nonprofits in the community or other ways that you're helping and serving others.
It’s because it is a community of service job.
To me, someone has a deep interest in serving and this is another way to do that as opposed to, “I just thought this would be another nice thing to write down on my resume,” or something, instead of being gratified by that kind of service.
It’s the status of it. “It's the end of my career and I thought it would be a good way to exit.”
Maybe, but are you going to enjoy it? It's not going to give you meaning. Thinking about that for yourself just as much as it is for others in the application process, seeing that you're serving in other ways, you got to think about all the different things for yourself. It might look cool, but is it something that I would enjoy?
A lot of trial lawyers say, “No, I wouldn't enjoy it at all. I much rather enjoy being the trial lawyer and I don't want to give that up.” If you know yourself, then you say, “No. I wouldn't get anything out of that.” There are other people like you who say, “I want to bring that experience that I had to the bench and there's a different way that I can add value as a judicial officer and it's time to do that.”
That leads to another recommendation which is to talk to people who are currently on the bench. What's a day in the life of a trial judge or an appellate judge look like? Do you want to sign up for that? It’s so that you have a good idea of what it actually looks like behind the bench, how you're spending a lot of your time and whether that's something that appeals to you or not.
That's what you did in terms of when you were looking at the Court of Appeals position. “I think I know, but let me find out.” It's good that you mentioned that because I think sometimes people would be shy about doing that or like, “Maybe nobody wants me to ask them that question or it would be funny.” No, you need to do exploration.
There'll be plenty of judges willing to share their experience, things that they love, and things that are challenges. Every job is going to have its challenges, so it’s good to know what those look like before you sign up for the job.
The application process is challenging, so you're like, “This is a marathon, not a sprint. Before I engage in the marathon, is it something that I would like to do eventually.”
It can be fairly isolating going on to the bench because of the ethical considerations. A lot of things that you enjoy doing, you might need to figure out. “Is that something I can continue to do when I'm on the bench?” If not, “Are there other activities I can do that will fulfill that same desire that I have? Am I going to miss that so much that I'm going to be miserable not being able to participate?” It’s getting a good understanding of what it is you're signing up for and whether that fits your needs or your lifestyle. I went on the bench when I had very young children and it went fine. I'm glad I did it when I did it.
Sometimes you can't control everything. Different positions come open at different times. I'm not suggesting that, for instance, if you have young children, you don't apply, but again, whether you're a man or a woman, figure out, “What is the impact that this will have on my family life?” Have a chance to talk to your spouse or your partner and figure out, “Is this something that we can work well into our family life or not?” Those are basic things, so I don't mean to suggest that people aren't thinking about these things when they apply for the bench. Sometimes you can get caught up in the excitement of going for the job and you sometimes don't stop to think long and hard enough about some of the collateral impacts of getting the job.
There's all the sparkle in your eyes, excitement about that particular role and then you're like, “Let's break this down. If I'm a trial judge, for example, I'm going to be in court until 5:00 or whatever. I'm going to work after that. I don't have a lot of flexibility in my actual daytime. That might mean that I'm not going to a lot of recitals or I'm not going to things for my kids that otherwise I could move around and do.” That's something helpful to think about. “Is that something I can be okay with or not?”
There are normally things that you can deal with and handle in various ways, but it may require some attention that some of us at times don't think that much about.
It’s the practical stuff. Also, something helpful to think of like, “You're applying for a job.” Something many of us have a lot of awe and reverence for but is a job. Thinking about the practical aspects of the impact of that, what it entails and what impacts it might have on your family life is something definitely to consider. It brings us back to practical and pragmatic questions. I'm going to end with a few lightning-round questions. Which talent would you most like to have but don't?
Stay positive and don’t fall into an easy trap of getting angry, anxious, or depressed.
I would like to be a better swimmer.
Do you need that skill in Mexico now?
No. I love snorkeling and I learned how to scuba dive, but I am not that at ease in the water. That would be something I would love to do. My Spanish-speaking skills still need improvement.
Who is your hero in real life?
It sounds cliche, but it’s my parents. It did a lot in their lives. They had very difficult situations at times, but they achieved so much and encouraged me in a lot of ways. I'm in awe of ultimately what they achieved from where they began.
They instilled some of that in you as well.
They were fighters. Not in an antagonistic or aggressive way, but they experienced a lot of racism in their lives growing up and developing their careers. They showed me how you could overcome those things with grace and determination.
Sometimes, it's the examples like those that make a difference, too, in seeing that. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? You can invite more than one person if you can't choose.
Given the amount of divisiveness, stress and anger that people have, having the Dalai Lama to dinner, I would love to know how does he navigate through the world? How does he stay positive and not fall into what can be an easy trap of getting angry or anxious or depressed? I would love to be able to sit down with him and have a nice talk.
That would be great. You could learn a lot from that.
I would hope so. I'm sure I couldn't emulate what it is that he might suggest I do, but at least certain things to strive for.
Sometimes it would just be nice to be in his presence and to have that feel for a while, even if you can't emulate it. It would be, at least, in itself calming for you in the short term. Finally, the last question. What is your motto, if you have one?
“Try and make each day count.”
That's a good one. My mom always says, “Make this the best day ever,” which is a variation of that.
It's easy to fall into a slump and I don't always live up to that, but I do try and get something out of each day. It doesn't have to be momentous. It can be doing and having a good meditation. Having that carry through the day and feel good about the day. It could be helping someone out. It could be something very concrete, but doing something that enhances the day and makes it count for you personally or broader.
Thank you so much, Judge Ashby. I appreciate it. Thanks for making my day a little more bright and more enjoyable. Hopefully, those who are reading this episode of the show as well. It’s nice to meet you, Judge Ashby.