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The law is often seen as impartial but cold. One way that practitioners are bridging the gap between the law and people is through empathy and understanding. In this episode, MC Sungaila discusses human interaction and the law with Kim Hardeman. She is a Partner at Lederer Weston Craig PLC, and made her mark in civil litigation.  She traces her career and helps us understand why the human touch is important in law and why women are assets on any legal team. Want to know more about women in the field of law? Then this episode is for you. 

Relevant episode links:

Lederer Western Craig , Sharon Greer – LinkedIn , IADC Trial Academy 

About Kim Hardeman:

Kimberly K. Hardeman is a Partner at Lederer Weston Craig PLC. They are a boutique civil litigation law firm with offices in Cedar Rapids and West Des Moines, Iowa. She has been in private practice since 1996 and has been involved in a civil litigation practice her entire career. Kim is proud to be a Fellow in the American College of Trial Lawyers and active locally in her State and local Bar Associations, the Iowa Academy of Trial Lawyers, and also nationally in DRI and IADC. She was selected as a faculty member of the IADC's Trial Academy held at Stanford University in July of 2013. 

I am very excited to have an amazing trial attorney. Kim Hardeman is a partner at Lederer Western Craig in the State of Iowa. Welcome, Kim. 

Thank you, MC. It is so great to be with you. 

We have had many different folks on the show from judges to entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders, and things like that but I also want to highlight some of the great women trial lawyers around the country like you. Before we get into your experience in litigation and trying cases, why don’t you start from the beginning in terms of what drew you to the law? How did you decide you wanted to go to law school and become a lawyer? 

Looking back, I think to myself one of the things that I remember as a little girl admiring strong women, whether they were doctors in my community or ministers. One person in particular, I remember, was a female lawyer in my small town in Iowa. I'll tell you her name is now-Supreme Court Justice Sharon Greer. At the age of ten, I remember having a career date with her, going and spending the entire day with her, going into her office full of men, her commanding the room, how she would talk to her clients, her mannerisms, and everything. I thought to myself, “This is the cat's meow.” I so admired this woman and how she handled herself. 

That was one thing that, even as a little girl, I loved strong women. My mom was a very strong woman. I thought being a lawyer was one way to do that. I could make an impact, be a leader in the community and do the things that I saw these other remarkable women doing. The other thing is my entire life has been surrounded by sports. I had an older brother who took me to everything. I was very involved in sports at a young age and very competitive. I loved the aspect of the competition that sports allowed me. I loved being in the moment. 

Even throughout college, that aspect of the competition, I did not know how that would impact me until I got into law school. I was trying to figure out what part of this practice of law fuels me then when I got into the litigation track competition. It was everything. I think I always knew that in the back of my head I could utilize that competition aspect through litigation and being a lawyer. I did not know that until I got to law school. That affirmed me. 

I have a bunch of questions from that first. The first part was that you said you were inspired by strong women. There are a couple of different ways to ask it. To you, what demonstrated strength? Another way to ask it would be if you can remember what specifically that now-Justice Greer did that impacted you in terms of how she led her room or how she presented her argument? 

I remember thinking that when somebody who does not look like anybody else can do something is a big deal. This is very early on. I remember there was a female police officer in our small town. I loved that because she was the only one that I ever remember. I love that we had a female principal in my private school whereas all of my friends in public schools had male principals. It was always very basically the fact that these women were doing things that I did not otherwise see other women doing. In rooms full of men that made me think, “I want to be like that. I want to be somebody that does something for the first time.” 

You learn so much more from the games or the events you lose than you do from those you win. 

I think that was one aspect of strength. The other thing was the acknowledgment of the hard work that went into every one of these women telling me what they had to do to get to the position they were in. That was probably the greatest piece of knowing these women did this despite the fact that nobody else in their family did it or nobody else in their classroom or community was doing it. The hard work that went into that made me think, “I want to be one of those people.” Basically, it was crazy but I do remember that and thinking that fueled me. 

Seeing women entrusted with that authority and responsibility then recognizing if they are willing to share the challenges they have overcome, it makes you say, “They have weathered some challenges and I am probably going to as well but they did it. I probably do it as well.” The second question I had was sports competitions. What kind of sports did you compete in? 

I have always naturally been very tall. I was always involved in basketball and volleyball. I played collegiate volleyball. For me, that was a challenge. Keeping grades up and playing college volleyball and knowing you wanted to go to law school. That was always in the back of my mind, knowing that I needed to get undergrad done. I needed to enjoy my time in undergrad. At the end of the day, I was always very goal-driven, knowing I wanted to go to law school. 

Anybody that plays college sports knows that if you are not organized and you are not dedicated, you cannot get through college with a good GPA knowing you want to get a law school and without being organized. For me, sports were always very regimented, which was very much like my personality. I was very much a type-A. Let’s check the boxes, get through this and move on. That kept me in that focus and the ability to do it. 

The discipline from that is so important and translates so well to law school, law practice and also, teamwork. Volleyball is tough. That is challenging. You have to be good at yourself but also coordination and teamwork, which I would think would be helpful when you are leading a litigation team or something like that. 

Very much. I always tell it to you. It is funny because when we are interviewing prospective associates or clerks, I always look for the athletes because I always think to myself, “Sports was such a good teacher, especially in litigation.” You learn so much more from the games or the events you lose than you do from those you win. That is so true in what we do in litigation. I remember trying the best cases I have ever tried. The best one I ever did, I lost and I lost badly but you learn so much from that loss that it fuels you for the next client and the next case. That you learn from sports and life. 

You can say it tritely that failure leads to future success thing. Especially if you are competitive and you like to win, it can be hard not to win but it is not without value. If you look at it, assess, and learn from it, you are like, “If I am going to make a mistake in the future, it is going to be a new one.” It is not going to be the same one again. That is how you know you are growing. Try learning different things and adjusting, but shame on you. 

The bad thing is I do not think I have ever gotten over being a bad loser. I kept thinking with age, that maybe I would be better at that.  

We like to win. It happens but not in a way that we are not at any cost. Let's put it that way. With integrity and ethics but we still prefer to win. 

That is right. I think the other thing you learn over time is that you pick and choose your battles because so early on, you are so motivated by winning and not losing that you want to win every single battle. As we age, mature and gain our experience, you realize that there are some little battles you deal with but you do not have to win every one of those. 

I think that the larger lesson in strategy and litigation is that, “This particular motion or part may not have 100% along the way but you have to keep your eye on the big picture of what is the big win. If the other stuff happens, that is okay. We are going towards this larger goal and being strategic about that.” 

That is what you learn when you deal with your clients as well. You get better at explaining that to them over time. You are a better advocate for your clients because you have gone through that in the past. At the end of the day, that experience gives you great strength with your clients. 

Also, understanding over time that you are taking into account what are the client's goals in a particular case. There is winning within litigation overall in court with a court order but then what is the overall goal? What are you trying to accomplish? If you can accomplish that in another way, that is good too. It is part of growing as a lawyer and becoming a good advisor to clients as a result. I think it is that experience and judgment over time. 

I think so too. 

You knew you wanted to go to law school and you thought, “Litigator sounds good. It seems to fit with my feisty, competitive nature.” Did you go straight into private practice or did you do something else? 

I did. I am the first lawyer in my entire family. My dad was a teacher. My mom was a nurse. I had no idea what this law thing was with the exception of my friend growing up. The year before I started law school, I clerked at a small firm in Marshalltown. This is funny. This will date me but they would put me in their law library. I would change all the leaflets for all the tax manuals. I would update all of the law books in their library but I got to see which lawyers did what type of work that I loved. That helped me in law school. I clerked at a small firm in Des Moines and law school then went directly into private practice as a general family practice lawyer. 

As we age and as we mature and as we gain experience, you realize that there are some little battles you just, deal with, but you don't have to win every one of those. 

I like to tell everyone that in the first year, I tried three jury trials, which is crazy. You do not hear that but I did because this man that I started working for had an incredible general litigation practice doing plaintiff's work. Here I am. This defense lawyer now has been my life's work but I spent the first seven years of my life doing plaintiff's work. I tried divorce trials, criminal trials, and insurance. It was a fire case. All of those things happened early. I probably shouldn't have but I did. It was baptism by fire. 

When you had the opportunity, what did you think? That still was unusual at that point in time even more so now that you would have cases that you would be entrusted with that soon in your career. 

For the first six months, I second chaired a bunch of trials with the main member of that firm. The first trial I had was a small divorce matter and I hated every part of it. I thought, “How can these two people be married? You folks were married. Can’t you figure this out?” You had no understanding other than your background of growing up why two people would hate each other and why we cannot resolve these matters. I knew early on that Family Law. I was not suited for that type of work. 

Talk about experiences from a negotiating standpoint and a human interaction standpoint of client participation and communication. I learned a lot from that. The second trial that I had was a fire case for two agricultural farmers. A husband and a wife who were basically having a dispute with an insurance company over coverage. That was my first lesson in human nature. I had this family who ran a hog operation and very unsophisticated, simple, sweet people who stunk so bad when I first met them that I thought, “How in the world am I going to be able to do this over three days and try a jury trial with these people?” 

The first lesson was, I have got to clean them up. I was trying to understand from a human nature standpoint how I have got to be sensitive to what they know, what I know, and how to prepare them. I remember asking my dad for a suit and for a shirt that would fit my client. Being very delicate about the fact that I need you to help me with this so that the jury won't hold this against you, made me feel so good, knowing I was genuinely helping people through something they couldn't otherwise help themselves. That is when I first have the, “This is a way for me to impact people's lives.” I helped them and got a great verdict after two days in the County of Iowa and felt good about it. 

The other thing that I did was I had a very senior district court state judge that was so kind to me. He knew it was my first jury trial. He knew that I needed a little guidance and I was always there every morning, an hour before the jury came in. I was obsessive about going through my questions and my outlines. He would always put his hand on my shoulder and say, “You are going to be great, kid. Do not forget to ask this question.” Little things like that in nowaday’s world, people cannot imagine judges doing. They did it. He was, after that, a very good friend and a mentor to me throughout my entire career. 

I can see that visual and a very steadying influence. 

Thinking to the back of my head at that point as a young lawyer, “Is it appropriate? He said that to me. Do I have to say anything?” Trying to be cool, collective, and knowing now I think this is a small town Iowa Judge's way of telling me I am going to be okay. 

In that story, there are so many examples of kindness and empathy, which I think people can forget or do not necessarily think of as being important in a legal case or in the legal profession. It is. As you said, these are things that are impacting human beings especially when you have individuals as clients. You notice that and with clients who clearly fish out of water for sure. In terms of a legal case and not understanding either what is going on or what is expected of their presentation, what people expect to see when they are in court. You had a lot of empathy for your clients and the judge had a lot of empathy for you. It is a great, nice, heartwarming story in terms of faith in our profession overall in terms of empathy for each other and also for clients. 

We forget about it and it is still there. 

Your story about replacing the supplements and the books, I am that age too, Kim. I had this flashback when I came out of law school. I had a judicial clerkship right away. In one of our jobs as law clerks, we did a lot of heavy lifting, reviewing the motions of working with the judge on the substantive stuff. We also had to replace all the supplements in the books. I remember one weekend, we were trying to have fun, my co-clerk and I, when we were doing this, going through all the shelves in the judge’s office and changing all of the pamphlets. 

We had Aretha Franklin or something on it. We are on these little ladders, singing and throwing the things on the floor and adding the new things trying to make it fun and in comes the judge because she is coming in to pick up something. We are like, “Judge, we are doing the supplements.” It was a little embarrassing but I was like, “Join in, Judge. Come on. You know the next lyric.” I was mortified like, “We got caught. We are in the middle of it. You cannot stop. The song is going so let's all do it together.” 

She probably loved it. 

She did. She was like, “Okay.” I had that flashback to replacing the supplements in the books. Lots of new lawyers had that job or law students had that job as well. That sounds like an amazing experience that you got early on. Also, the good thing about that is that you are able to see. Sometimes, we have a vision or we think this is what litigation or a trial would look like but it isn't. You want to have those experiences as soon as possible so you can find out if your idea of it matches what you like. 

I consider myself very lucky and practicing as early as I did and getting the experience I did in a plaintiff's firm so prepared me for doing defense work. Eventually, I have contemplated doing mediation. I have had a lot of colleagues reach out to me and say, “Kim, you need to do mediation.” I think at some point in time, I am interested in that because I have handled that side and now doing so much defense work later in my career but you learn so much. Back to empathy, understanding both sides and knowing what the arguments are on the other side made me a better defense lawyer, clearly and not to forget about being a plaintiff lawyer and knowing that side of it too. I felt very lucky in that first job. 

That work was very hard because I ended up doing a lot of medical malpractice work, trying a lot of medical malpractice cases, and losing a lot of medical malpractice cases. After every one, as we said before, you learn something. I remember running into one of the doctors that we had sued. I was out shopping one evening with my husband. He ran up to me and said, “I saw that you changed firms. They are lucky to have you because you are a very good lawyer.” I remember thinking to myself, “I have lost two cases against you. You still have the class to come up and say that. I appreciate knowing that.” That meant a lot to me because you try those cases and you do that work, it can become very disheartening because it is so difficult. 

I know when I have individual clients, it is much harder. You want to win in any way and you want to win for your client especially when you have that good connection with them as a person. When it does not happen, it is not only your competitive side is disappointed but also, back to that empathy and connection with the client, you are like, “I feel bad for you because I think that the result should have been otherwise or I hoped that it would have would be.” 

I think that is tougher in some ways when you represent individuals who are impacted in that way but it is also a big testament to you. Sometimes, we get comments from lawyers on the other side who refer things to us. We say, “That is a huge compliment on the other side that we worked.” That had integrity but we were good, so they would refer people to us but the actual party, that is different. That is cool. 

It's not so much anymore about having that token woman on a trial team, it's about whose strengths can really serve on this trial team. 

I always talk to my colleagues about this after you tried jury trials. You have a jury reach out to you and say, “I have got a case. I was a juror in one of your trials two years ago.” You think, “I do not remember that,” but what a compliment you as a lawyer to think that a juror saw you trying a case now and trust them with your case. It is very good and rewarding. 

Sometimes you do not know it. It is helpful to have that feedback. Did you move to defense work at your firm or was it another firm first? 

It is three of the partners that I started with right after my plaintiff's firm. We were at another firm, a midsize firm in Cedar Rapids. The core of that work I did for about six years then four of us moved out and started our own firm. It was when I started at the defense practice then I went to immediately after my first private practice. That developed into a defense practice and all litigation. I loved it. I tell everybody that those were my favorite days because I was practicing law. 

All I had to do was practice law. I loved it and tried a lot of jury cases in those years. We started our own firm and that became another love but what a different experience now running your own firm, the headaches with managing a firm and being the person in charge of personnel. There are great things in that and there are a lot of challenges that you do not otherwise anticipate. That is where we have been. 

When you said, “I was so glad I was able to practice law.” I think younger lawyers would be like, “What are you talking about?” Everyone who is a partner nodded, going, “Wouldn't that be nice?” It is good to have, as you said, the other roles because there are other growth opportunities and you have different skills to apply. It is very different practicing law and trying cases. In addition, being an administrative partner, developing a practice group or, in your case, being a smaller firm. A firm that you cofounded that you have other responsibilities with. 

You forget the marketing side of being able to get out there and market yourself. Many of us are not good at that. We are not comfortable doing that, being involved in national organizations, getting on boards, and having colleagues that are in other states. That helps you gain that comfort level because otherwise, it is not so easy in a state the size of Iowa. Everybody knows each other to begin with but you need to do some national work so that you get your name out there to broaden your practice. That is an aspect that you do not anticipate when you are a young newbie lawyer trying to get through your cases. You do not realize how important that is. 

That is an interesting point in terms of where you practice, geographically, how does the practice go in a particular area, and the second point of where do you get your work, directly from clients, often from referrals or, in your case, from jurors or opposing parties. It sounds like a very broad range. You raised an important point in terms of if you are going to have a very high-level but smaller boutique firm in a state. It is not New York City so it is a different setting. How do you maximize your presence nationwide and raise your profile to get higher profile cases as well? 

Obviously, both of us think highly of National Defense Lawyer Organizations since that is how we met. That is a good way. I think in my practice in appellate law, as far as referrals, most of mine, it is like being a specialist doctor. Other doctors refer. In my case, it is other lawyers usually or in-house counsel, occasionally some CEOs and presidents and things like that and individuals but largely, it is other lawyers so it is very helpful. It is helpful to know what is the progression with the connection in terms of how you get work in your particular practice areas so you know how to direct, as you said, marketing efforts or profile efforts, like who do I want to raise my profile with and where? What is the path to referrals and work? 

That is an important point that no one else has yet raised on the show, which is being intentional about thinking about that, looking at your context, understanding the stream of work and what you would need to either increase that work or get a different work whether it is the national coordinating council or something like that, on a defense side. 

Women are especially good about developing relationships and wanting to help develop those relationships if it comes from referring work. On several different litigation trial teams, I have been contacted by colleagues out of state that have said, “We have got a case in Iowa, Kim. Your personality and your practice group would fit in perfectly with our team. Are you interested?” To have that compliment from a colleague, any opportunity I get to reach out to one of my female colleagues and say, “We would be great on this trial team together. What are your thoughts on helping me with this case?” 

As women, if we continue to do that, we are going to continue to benefit our profession because it is not so much anymore about having that token woman on a trial team. It is about whose strengths can serve on this trial team and thinking of your female colleagues because we are the best. I always look for those opportunities. 

That is another good point. In terms of being a national council for a client across different jurisdictions but also in the situation you mentioned, which happens frequently. There might be someone who is in that role, who is coming to a different state and is like, “We need a combo team here of people who know the courts, have a great trial presence, and would be a good fit with our team on this.” It is also another common thing for me. We are part of the trial team at trial as appellate lawyers but also on appeal. Can we work together well? We have complementary skills that would be helpful. As you said, always thinking about referring and including on the teams other women. That is important and supports each other in that way. We will have fun together so that is good too. 

There are a lot of weekends and nights on those trial teams.  

That is what I remember when I did trial work. Kim, you have the payoff from it but it is long hours. You better enjoy it because it is a lot of time away from family, time and focused effort. Although, I will say I feel bad for people who have a hard time cross-examining them, which is why I am not a trial lawyer. Every trial lawyer is like, “Okay.” That is how I knew it wasn't my thing because I was in trial and I felt badly speaking of empathy. 

I felt badly for these people even if some of them were cooperating felons and they were bad dudes, they get ripped to shreds on the stand and away they went. I felt bad for them as people, even though they probably deserved it because they were not being straightforward. I was like, “I cannot do that to another person.” All the trailers were like, “Wasn't that great? That was the best thing.” I am like, “There are two different kinds of creatures here.” 

The trial lawyers say, “We feel so badly for that person because we are giddy about how bad their examination was and how good ours was.” 

It was two different reactions. When you look at that, you go, “Which does not belong here?” I think that is me. There is something else but I love talking to judges, writing motions, and arguing the jury instructions. It turns out, that is what we do as appellate lawyers at trial. I said, “ I do not have to do that other part. That is fine. Everybody can handle that. That is good. I'll do the other part.” It works out well. I wanted to ask you too. You had mentioned this one judge early on, who was very kind to you in your first trial and supportive. Have there been other mentors or sponsors along the way who have helped you in the firms or outside? What does that look like? 

I had very good mentors early in my career and throughout my career. That meant both women and men. One of my partners now, he and I tried a horrible wrongful death case against each other. He represented the defendant. I represented the plaintiff. It was a child that had died in a retail store. We tried a case over about a week and a half. I remember learning so much throughout that litigation from him being on the opposite side. Again, I was a very young lawyer. After that trial, we remained good friends. He would take me to lunch from time to time. I would ask him for advice from time to time. He took me under his wing and became a lifelong mentor for me and I had the opportunity to be able to practice with him. 

Mentors come in all different forms. They may be early in your career. They may be somebody you never expect. 

I always tell people that mentors come in all different forms. They may be early in your career or somebody you never expect. I had some very good early female trial lawyers that would always be so generous with their time, “How are you doing? What are you doing? What kinds of opportunities are you presenting yourself with from community involvement?” It is giving back because they were very instrumental in making sure that I wasn't only practicing law but I was utilizing all of my traits for other things in the community. That was good. I had very good female mentors growing up. I am not as good about this as I should be but as you age and become experienced, it teaches you that you need to give that mentoring back. 

I have always tried to pride myself in being available to young lawyers whether they were associates in my office, they were young people in my community, or people I meet during litigation. I have had two occasions where I had very young associates on the other side of a case where afterward, I would say, “You were fantastic. If you ever need anything, please reach out.” They do reach out and you stay in touch. Not only have I had great mentors growing up but now I need to give more of that back towards the latter part of my career to make sure that that mentoring is not just a one-way street but I give it back now too. 

I always think about it that way. First, express gratitude to those who have helped you if you can identify them. Sometimes, there are people who help you behind closed doors but you will never know they helped you but still be grateful for that help. The only way to do it is to pay it forward. I remember some of the judges who are going through the appointments process. There will be different women who had been on an appointments committee previously or judges who had been through the process. 

We would get together. We basically moot them for their grilling or whatever it was coming up and make sure that people were prepared. The mantra from that group was always, “I do not need anything. Make sure you do something like this for the next person.” That is all we ask. We do not ask for anything other than if somebody else needs this or you see that somebody else needs it, you pay it forward to the next person. 

That is 100% how you have to be and you have to always remember that. If you forget that then you lose a piece of yourself because you have forgotten all of the people that have helped you get to that point. There are times when I feel like I am way too busy to do this. I had a young gal call and said, “My partner is involved with a case with you. I am working on some of the background stuff but he says you are somebody I should meet. Can I take you to lunch?” It is the last thing in the world you want to do but it is the most important thing you should do that day. You have to remember that. 

The coffee and lunches can be hard but as your stories show, sometimes it is the right kind of word or encouragement that can give you confidence and move you forward. It is nice to do those things as well but sometimes, it is being kind to someone at the right point in time can be the thing that helps them. It can be small deeds too. 

You never walk away from that going, “I shouldn't have done that.” No. Every time you walk away and say, “I am so glad I did that,” it is in that moment of our busy schedules we forget about it. 

Expressing and acknowledging like, “You are good at that,” or something positive that you have observed about someone makes anyone's day, particularly for someone who is in their first trial or doing things for the first time. It is nice to like, “You are good at this. Do not worry about the confidence level. Here is something else to think about if you want to improve your skills. Consider this.” I also always think about newer attorneys. I always want to make sure that they do not forget about the larger picture for themselves because, in so many ways, it is very easy to put your head down and do the cases, the hours, and all of that in a law firm. 

If you emerge from your office five years later and no one has ever seen you other than the people you are working with within the firm, you are going to have real problems. Also, as a person, as you said, it is much better to be using your overall skills and getting to know people in the community anyway. I always encourage them to build skills first but also build those skills outside the firm. There are opportunities to do that outside the firms so that you can start making a name for yourself and having other people know you because you do not want to be emerging from your cave suddenly. It is way too much to catch up on that. 

I think that is great advice. 

I was trying to nudge them. I am like, “Do you want to co-write an article? I am going to put your name on it. I am not trying to get you to do work. Nudge things. Get out there. After this, you can choose to do something else but basically, I am going to show you what it looks like to do this and how it works.” Those are little ways you can help people and think a little more broadly about their overall career because as you have indicated, everybody often these days moves around and goes to different places. Other people need to know you. As you seem to have the situation of people on the other side respect you once they have seen your work. 

I only tell you the good stuff, MC. 

Tell me the good stories. 

There are bad ones but learn from those too. 

That is true. As we discussed, you learn from things and move forward. You can impress those people because of other things that you learn a lot. It is not all wine and roses. That is for sure. I am wondering if you have any tips for those who might want to become trial lawyers or to do that full time. Are there any tips you have in terms of getting experience or getting your feet wet? Now, your circumstance was fabulous but those are fewer and far between at this point. 

It is such a different world now because you do not get the number of trials that we did in our generation. I have told my niece, who is in litigation as well, “Expose yourself to as much as you possibly can. You may think commercial litigation is boring but there are always opportunities in commercial litigation to be arbitrary.” 

If you do have an opportunity to be on a court-appointed list for criminals, do it because not only are you giving back, which I tend to find a lot of our younger lawyers want to do. It will do nothing but improve your trial skillset so do that. If you have a municipal practice in your firm, I tell lawyers, “I know it is not sexy stuff but take the OWI cases for cities or take the traffic violations.” What it does is it forces you to think on your feet, to get into a courtroom and cross-examine witnesses even if it is half a day in front of a judge. 

Express gratitude to those who have helped you if you can identify them. Sometimes there are people who help you behind closed doors, but you'll never know they helped you. Be grateful for that help. 

That has probably been my biggest advice for young lawyers and litigation. It is to expose yourself to everything. Not only the areas you want to do. Two, branch out to any opportunity you have to get into the courtroom. The other thing that I think sometimes younger lawyers are afraid to do is sit in and watch people. Their pride does not allow them to do that. “He learns so much to sit in the back of a courtroom and watch people work.” I know that maybe your firm won't allow you those hours or you will have to make up some time on weekends but if you know a good trial is going on with good lawyers, you owe it to yourself to watch and learn. Those are some of the pieces of advice I have given. 

That last one's good advice because, honestly, the focus is on billable hours, understandably so but not to the exclusion of opportunities to learn in terms of what people can tell you about how they do things. When you watch them, they are so many things they do unconsciously or subconsciously. They won't tell you that is one of their techniques or strategies or things like that. I am the same way. I am not conscious about it. That is the way you do it but you are not going to tell anyone that. It was much better for someone to follow you around or watch that to see for themselves what was going on. 

IADC Trial Academy or things like that as well are good opportunities for training, at least. If you want to add on or get some experience or you do not have the other opportunities you mentioned, come up right away. That is another opportunity to develop skills from experienced trial lawyers. I know you have taught at the Trial Academy for IADC as well. 

One of the most rewarding experiences I have ever had and any of the people from my firm or other firms that I have had to go through it say the same thing. You learn so much. You think that you know how to try a case or you have got an idea of how it works but then you get the skillset to demonstrate it and put it into use. If somebody gives you feedback that is purely out of encouragement, it is not criticism. It is strictly encouragement and positivity. Any opportunity somebody has to do that is worth it. If you grow as a lawyer so much over the span of your career, everybody can learn how to do things better. I always say the hardest thing we do as trial lawyers is pick a jury because nobody tells you how to do it. 

You learn how to provide opening statements, how to cross-examine and do the direct examination, and how to do a closing argument but nobody tells you how to pick a jury. At the end of the day, it is having a conversation with somebody. It is figuring out how to frame that conversation. I learn every time you try a case how to do it a little bit better. Sometimes, you have a great rapport and sometimes, you do not. That is not something that is taught. 

It is something that is learned but if you have opportunities to participate in that aspect of it whether it is through mock trials that your firm may be having on big cases, that is always one skillset we always learn as trial lawyers how to do things better. That has always been my focus. It is how do I do better at picking juries because, at the end of the day, it is having a conversation knowing how to frame it. 

That is a good observation. I am thinking about the child academy or other child training. There is not usually a section on jury selection. 

There is not. I had always thought when I reached out to my colleagues about the Trial Academy, I always say, “You guys should think about a special segment because it is something that is hard to do. Check the box. We have got the jury now here we go.” It is one of the most important aspects of that trial. 

That is true. That is so important. We included some of the appellate record preservation stuff, which you need to be thinking about but certainly that. Even if you are not doing it yourself, you are doing it in coordination with a jury consultant or something like that so you want to be part of that process and to understand, not completely off-board that to jury consultant. 

It is hard because, in some of those big cases where you do have the jury consultant, you feel like a piece of you isn't in that jury selection but yet, that is your first connection with these people that are going to be sitting with you for the next how many days. It is really important. 

Your job is to persuade them. You need to get a connection with them and have that sense. If you can select some of the audience you are persuading, that would be very helpful. Are you ready for a few lightning round of questions?  

I am ready. 

Which talent would you most like to have but do not? 

I would love to be an amazing cook. I am terrible. I can make toast. That is about the extent. 

That is a start. You did not burn the toast. That is good. What is the trait you most deplore in others and what is the trait you most deplore in yourself? 

Laziness is the trait that I most deplore in others. 

That is a side effect I think of decisiveness and type-A thing. You have to be careful not to verge into the judgment side. That is the dark side of that. Who are your favorite writers? 

I love F. Scott Fitzgerald. I love all those books. I am a poetry snob. I love poetry. Maya Angelou, I could go on for hours. I feel like there is such a renaissance of writing poetry right now. I do not know why that is or maybe I have more time to focus on it but there are so many so to pick one is hard. Those are two that I admire from a writing and poetry standpoint. 

Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from indomitable will. 

I know for myself in law school I stopped reading anything other than what I had to read for law school. It was like a fire hose but it is nice when you can switch back to non-legal reading and enjoy that because it does teach you. Good writing is good writing. It is always enjoyable to read it but then also to absorb that and have that maybe filtrate into your legal writing as well. It is nice to have a little more. In law school, nothing other than reading. Do not make me read anything else. Who is your hero in real life? 

My dad. He is the most hardworking person I know and always happy. Those two things. If you work hard and you are happy, what else do you need in life? 

That is a good combination. This might be related. For what in life do you feel most grateful? 

Two things. Health and family. 

Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? You can invite more than one person if you cannot choose. 

Ruth Bader Ginsburg would be hands down a pick along with Sandra Day O'Connor. The two of them together at dinner would be phenomenal. 

That is a great combination. I like that because there are other similar experiences but different so that would be cool. Last question. What is your motto, if you have one? 

I love and I have this quote up in my office on a big board. Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. That is a Gandhi quote but I love that because that fuels me every day. It fills what I do in life but it is a great trait for anyone who sees themselves maybe as an underdog or something like that but that is a mantra I have always lived by and always realized. I love that. Plus, it is easy to remember. 

That is a good one. Strength of will is an important thing in terms of moving forward, even when things might look a little dark. I think that is a great way to tie together our discussion from the beginning in terms of your athletic competitiveness, your competitiveness in the courtroom, and your tremendous success as a trial lawyer. I am so glad that you joined the show and we had this conversation. 

I am so grateful for the opportunity, MC. Thank you so much. 

Thank you so much, Kim, for joining the Portia Project.