Episode 76: Barbara J. Dawson
Chair-Elect, Snell & Wilmer; Past Chair of the ABA Section of Litigation
00:58:28
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Show Notes
Host MC Sungaila trades insights with Barbara J. Dawson, a litigation partner and the incoming Chair of Snell & Wilmer, about recognizing leadership opportunities, authenticity, how to become highly engaged with and navigate your law firm, and the importance of having a sense of community.
This episode is powered by Snell & Wilmer.
Relevant episode links:
Snell & Wilmer, Justice Timmer - Past Episode - Episode 13: Ann Scott Timmer, The Geography of Genius, Judge Roslyn Silver
About Barbara J. Dawson
Barbara J. Dawson
Barbara Dawson is a litigation partner and the incoming Chair of Snell & Wilmer. She previously served on the firm’s elected five-person Executive Committee and three-person Compensation Committee. She also has led the firm's Commercial Litigation Practice Group and its International Practice Group.
Barb’s practice concentrates on assisting Fortune 500 businesses and boards of directors with internal investigations, complex litigation and regulatory compliance. Best Lawyers in America® has recognized her as Phoenix Lawyer of the Year for Regulatory Enforcement Litigation. Barb assists companies when legal challenges arise from government action, shareholder, consumer and whistle-blower claims, ESG issues, and other circumstances involving business-threatening conflict and crisis management. She has deep industry experience with several highly regulated business sectors, including financial services, energy, education and technology.
On a national basis, Barb has chaired the American Bar Association’s Section of Litigation and currently serves on the board of the Rule of Law Initiative. She recently served as one of 16 members of the ABA’s Standing Committee on the Federal Judiciary that vets and rates federal judicial candidates for the United States Supreme Court, Courts of Appeal and District Courts.
On an international basis, Barb has served as chair of the Board of Directors for Lex Mundi, an international affiliation of 160+ independent law firms located in 100+ countries. She frequently assists clients with matters involving non-U.S. parties and venues, international compliance issues and cross-border investigations. Her experience has included legal engagements, law-related presentations, projects and board of directors' duties on six continents.
Transcript
I'm very pleased to have joined us on this episode, Barbara Dawson, who is a Litigation Partner at Snell & Wilmer, but most importantly will soon become Chair of Snell & Wilmer in 2023 and serves on the executive committee of the firm as well. As if that weren't enough, she's also a former Chair of the American Bar Association’s Litigation Section. Welcome, Barbara.
Thank you. I’m happy to be here with you.
I'd love to get your advice and thoughts on the various leadership roles that you have held. You have a lovely grace about you in those roles and are very inclusive. It's what I think some people might say is sometimes challenging to be very much gracious and feminine about your power. That's something that's unique about you and how you are in your particular roles and want other people to grow. First, I wanted to dig a little bit and see how it is that you decided to go into the law or go to law school and become a lawyer, to begin with.
My path started at Iowa State University where I'm a first-generation college. I thought that I would either go on to Psychology and get my PhD in Psychology or go on to Law. Law scared me more. I thought, “If I'm going to be brave about my path, I should probably do that thing that keeps calling to me but feels very challenging and exciting.” I had no lawyers in my family. The only lawyer I'd met was the university's counsel. I was very much fortunate and blessed to be in a family where education was valued. I was encouraged to go for as much education as I wanted or thought fit me. I had the opportunity to go to law school, which was extraordinary.
That's a great formula for life generally, in terms of making decisions, doing things that scare you a little bit because it causes you to grow. That's a good starting formula for a lot of other choices along the way, but what was it about law that made you think you would be interested in it, especially since you didn't have a lot of background or have seen whether it involved?
I had been fortunate in having a lot of opportunities to be in leadership positions. Whether it was when I was young student council to when I was at Iowa State, I was the senior class president, the first woman to be in that role. By being in leadership positions, I got a chance to have a little bit of a sense of the important dynamics to make things function if we have a set of rules. If we work together as a society, we can do some good. In that process, I kept hearing things that suggested that law school might be a path to more of these things that I liked so much, the organizational dynamics of society.
It seemed both natural and unnatural. It seemed natural given some of the choices that I was making as to how I was spending my time and the people I was gravitating to. Very unnatural in that, being a young woman in the mid-1980s in Iowa, you didn't see a lot of role models that look like you. It felt very much like it was going to be something new and different to be female and going down that path. Fortunately, I found ways that doors opened and I got a chance to experience what I wanted.
Those stories and the personal histories of some of the women on the show who graduated earlier than that, and you can see some of those barriers shifting over time. They are still there, the entry-level in that phase, not that many to look to, and as you note. Not quite at the level that some people have mentioned on the show in terms of only men need to apply for certain jobs. There's a little bit of advancement in that regard, but still not a lot of people that same experience as me, graduating in 1991, still not a lot of females, especially at senior levels.
Your answer echoes a couple of different things that I have heard also from other guests, which is the law is a method of problem-solving within society and they want to be a part of that to find a way to do that. The second one is that having legal training helps you and enhances your leadership skills overall and how you look at problems and how you analyze them. I have seen that on boards where I'm one of a few lawyers. We always think about things critically and analytically break down the problems, and how are we going to get there, and legal training is helpful in that regard and in terms of leadership also.
You and I probably see that in so many people around us who have taken different paths with a legal background. I will take this as a sense of call. When you have that training and you come into an organization, you have the benefit of having been trained in a way to think about problems and unpack them and calmly analyze options and determine paths that can be taken. Doesn't that all make us better? It is a set of skills that can help us in so many ways.
Katrina Foley who's on the Orange County Board of Supervisors out here is a lawyer who also practiced law before she went full-time into the political elected realm, but not all the members of the board of supervisors are lawyers and she attacks problems a particular way, “Let's go find the evidence. Let's look at this.” Like she's litigating a case when she's looking at problems and there's value in being able to add that to the next.
The practice of law is a privilege. And with that comes the obligation to give back however you choose to.
It's interesting to see anyone who has come through an educational background that gave them a framework. We work within the frameworks that we have. You and I, and others who have gotten this one probably feel pretty fortunate to have it in our toolbox.
You went to law school and enjoyed it as it turns out. At least you decided being a lawyer would be enjoyable.
Yes, absolutely.
There’s this very tight connection between Iowa and Snell & Wilmer located in Phoenix, which are a lot of Iowa transplants there. Is that how you managed to come to Snell & Wilmer?
I had another step in the process. There's a big connection between the University of Iowa and Arizona. I started with another firm. I didn't plan to come to Phoenix at all. I have interviewed with a lot of other firms in the Midwest and other parts of the country, but I had never been to Arizona. I signed up for an interview on a fluke, ended up coming down and clerking, and ultimately joined Evans, Kitchel, & Jenckes, which at the time was the oldest firm in Arizona. Justice Rehnquist had been there. It blew up my first year of practice.
More life lessons, but I called back to the University of Iowa to a mentor and said, “I'm in the situation. I'm going to have to get my resume out there.” I'm going to have to shift gears. This person said, “Why don't I call John Bouma the then-chairman of Snell & Wilmer.” They all shook their heads there. They said, “The Iowans are supposed to go to Snell & Wilmer in the first place. That was your first mistake.”
I took another step in there, which I'm grateful for. You learn a lot about going through an experience that doesn't work out. Being in a firm with wonderful people, but having the floor pulled back gave me a different way of looking at my career that I think has been helpful. I sure was glad after that until I landed at Snell & Wilmer. I have been delighted to be there now for many years.
I hadn't realized that you had started somewhere else before Snell & Wilmer because you have been there for a long time. Justice Timmer was also on the show and has a history she said of every firm she's been either imploding or merging into some other firms. She's like, “People should be worried when I come there in case of something like that might happen.”
I had that feeling too that this firm had lasted for decades a. I show up and it blows up in one year was a little bit awkward.
She had that. She's like, “Every time I'm moving, something happens. Maybe I should play ahead in case the unexpected might occur.”
The Arizona Supreme Court is looking pretty solid. I don't think she's going to make it go anywhere.
I'm very glad that Justice Timmer was there. She's a wonderful person too. Tell me about your journey at Snell & Wilmer then. You had a lot of leadership roles throughout the firm and will have the leadership role following Matt Feeney and John Bouma’s footsteps. Maybe you can talk about that a little bit.
When I came over, I didn't know how I was going to like it. I had heard they worked so hard. It's a rough-and-tumble place. Candidly, that's not been the experience. I have found it to suit me in a lot of respects. First of all, coming from a place that had wonderfully nice people, but economically didn't have stability made me so appreciate Snell & Wilmer for that. At the core, it's very fiscally conservative. We have never had debt and won't have debt.
That I realized is the foundation that if you have that stability, all the other things that you want to be able to give to your people, whether that's a good training program, the opportunity to do pro bono or service in the community, it's so much easier to do that because your house is in order. I have appreciated that and candidly, I have taken advantage then of those things that were offered. From early on, I got the chance to do meaningful pro bono.
I loved the fact that it's entrepreneurial here and a little bit free market. If you say, “I want to jump in over there. I want to try that. I will work hard, but let me on that case.” You are probably going to get those opportunities. I felt like I have gotten a lot of opportunities to chart my own course. It feels like that with the guidance of lots of people packed around you who have a lot of great experience and gently guide you as needed. For me, it's been a fit and a lot of fun in working with a lot of people who I have found to be extraordinary. Many more pass through our doors and go on to distinguished careers in other areas. I am very pleased to be associated with the quality of people who come to Snell & Wilmer.
What you discussed in terms of community service whether that's a bar or nonprofit leadership or pro bono work is part of the DNA of the firm.
It is. I will tell you a personal story about that. When I came over in my first year at Snell, so it was my second year of practice in ‘89 and ’90, and AIDS HIV was a big, challenging issue. We had someone who visited our firm from a healthcare organization and they were desperately looking for some assistance with respect to basic needs, whether it's wills, powers of attorney, or other issues that would help people to have peace of mind when they were dealing with this terrible disease.
They got a handful of us to say, “We will volunteer.” A colleague of mine who's gone on the bench, but he was a first-year associate and I was a second-year. While we coordinated a legal clinic, ran it out of the firm because we read the firm's policies. It said, “For pro bono, follow your passions and the firm will support what you do.” We do not pick out what causes anyone takes on. We took this on. We did that for a good amount of time, a couple of years. Ryan White Funds came into play. The clinic was taken over by the county bar and still exists.
I have told that story, and people here say, “You ran the county's first AIDS HIV legal clinic out of the firm as a second year.” I look back and I go, “Yeah, I did, but under our policies had said I could.” It was one of those things where we got support across the office. We had the head of the estate planning group. I talked to him about what the needs were. He came with us down to the health care facilities and was helping. People had good hearts and didn't sit back and say, “There are some needs. I wish I could do something.” They appreciate it. There's something I can do. Let me spend some of my time. To your point, I agree. It's very much in the fabric for us to feel that the practice of law is a privilege. With that comes the obligation to give back however you choose to.
That aligns with my view on those things too and made me very grateful and proud to be with the firm.
We very much appreciate the amazing work you did when I think about how you impact. With the idea of writing briefs for the Supreme Court and the other courts that were making determinations on critical issues, we sure appreciated your leadership in that space. It made a big difference.
Thank you. We aim to do that. That's good when we can. That's amazing that you started that clinic, but it's the same thing. You see a need and fill it and other stories within the firm. That's wonderful. You had mentioned when you were deciding what to do with your first law firm coming to Snell & Wilmer. You reached out to a mentor at the law school. Can you talk a little bit about mentors that you have had and what that looks like? I think sometimes people don't always know, “I know I'm supposed to have a mentor, but what does that look like and what do they do?”
Finding organizations where you have a passion for what they’re doing makes it easier. It's very authentic if you love what you’re doing.
That's very fair. It sure it's not one size fits all in what any one individual might think would help them or be their style in mentoring would be very different for another person. I will tell you about one of my favorites who was at Snell & Wilmer and passed away. We lost him too soon. Dan McAuliffe was a very senior person in litigation when I started. In a lot of respects, we could not be more different. Dan had the pedigree of having been at Harvard. He was in the Department of Justice Honors Program. He came with a very East Coast and quite a fancy pedigree. He was very impressive and was very senior when I started. I had an entry-level job on one of his big litigation cases.
From that strangely, we got along and made each other laugh. He probably thought it was one heck of a project. This gal from Iowa who didn't know what she was doing, but she was going to keep trying. He very much had an underdog mentality as far as who he would reach out in support. Being a woman at that time in the courts was still significantly unusual that he thought, “There are going to be challenges ahead and I will see how this one does.” He mentored me, Janet Barton, who served with distinction on our state court, and Heidi Staudenmaier, who is serving with distinction within the firm and in any number of community activities. All of us would say we were lucky to have his guidance. He would set us up to go into court to argue things ourselves. He would be the safety net. You can test things in advance, but there was no coddling. You learn by doing, but how brave of him to not say, “I have got it. You can carry my bag,” but to say, “Get in there. You can do this.”
As you mature in your career, you realize that can be a challenge sometimes too, because it isn't your decision about who's going to argue that. You need to talk to the client about that too and make sure the client is comfortable.
He was taking chances on people and vouching using his power of influence and his credibility and putting it on the line for us.
You knew to knock it out of the park and deliver so that helped him too.
It didn't happen every time, but I think we all got better.
I will say that in small and large ways, you were important to me and also continue to be to other women lawyers at Snell & Wilmer because you take a lot of care in that regard of reaching out and making sure we are doing okay and is there anything we need, and things like that. It's always nice to know that there's someone who's looking out in that regard.
We are all doing that for each other. On a good day, you feel lots of hands outstretched to you offering some assistance.
The point about the mentoring of people sticking their neck out a little bit and making sure that you have opportunities both to do things, but that people know that you have done those things also, and making sure that you get more opportunities as a result of that.
You make me think of a vision I won't forget when I was up for partner. The partnership decisions would be made at a retreat where all of the attorneys were together and all the non-partners would leave. You would know that the people left were the partners who are going to be discussing the candidates. A vision I won't forget is I looked around that morning when I knew I was going to be up and Dan wasn't there. I left the retreat and was driving out. Here I see in a convertible and a Hawaiian shirt. I remember him being quite a vision approaching the meeting. I have an advocate. Part of being a mentor is being present and in the room to voice your support for folks as they are rising through the ranks.
I wanted to switch a little bit towards your leadership outside the firm as well within the American Bar Association and a lot of other things as well. How did you choose the other things to become involved in? How is leading in those organizations the same or different from leading within the firm?
I think outside of the firm, the leadership opportunities I have had have come in spaces where first, the organization itself was meaningful to me. I have been a part of a variety of organizations, but the ones that I led are the ones where my interests very much aligned with their mission. Picking and finding organizations where you have a passion for what they are doing sure makes it easier. It's very authentic if you are loving what they are doing and it's easy to get highly engaged, so that's been important. I have always said, “I'm willing to do the work.”
I felt like opportunities have come to me never because someone looked around the room and said, “She would be the strongest speaker, the best advocator.” No. I'm the one that will raise my hand and say, “We need a survey. I will do the survey and summarize it. I will write the article,” but I have loved that because by doing the work, I’m always learning. Often if you are raising your hand to do the work, it's going to be a team activity. You get to know other people with like interests. That's been the path that's worked for me and been a blast. I'd say finding organizations about which you are passionate and rolling up your sleeves. It's a good path to leadership.
That's true. That's how you get to know more people by working side by side with them and volunteering to do certain things. That's good advice for newer lawyers, too, because sometimes, either people feel that I need to do this particular organization because that's what everybody does. Your answer to that is, “If you are passionate about it, yes, but not if you are not.” People will notice that too. You are going to notice that. This is extra time you are giving. You should have some meaning to it. The second thing is when you are younger and newer in the profession, you think, “What can I do? What can I contribute?” The answer to that is if you agree to jump in on a project, you will find out what that is. You will find out what you can add.
If you jump in, you can play over your head. I will give you an example. As a young partner, I was given the opportunity to go to a meeting. That's a global affiliation of law firms around the world. It was exciting to go to this. My thought was, “If I like it, I want to get involved.” At that point in time, there was a handful out of hundreds of lawyers who were women. They had set their first meeting of women who attended and set it at 7:30 in the morning after a big night. I thought, “I'm getting myself off. I'm going to that. I'm going to see if there's something I can do.” I thought that was my best chance.
They wanted to do a survey of all the firms around the globe and didn't have the resources to do it. I had no idea how I do it, but I said, “I will do it.” I got to be in touch with all these firms. As a result, I and a couple of others created a work product that we were able to speak about. It was that same thing that we are talking about even though you are new, add value through your work. It's not about you, but it's about the thing you are willing to learn, study, and report back to others. I encourage your people to look for opportunities where they can be the person that showcases others, does the writing, and that's a nice path to being relevant and playing above your head.
If you are joining an organization, you want to have contact and an understanding of who's in that organization that is a great way to do that while also engaging in something that you are interested in terms of, “We should do this survey. We figure out how to do this, and harness all of the information, not the different members have.” Did you stop having the women's meetings at 7:30 AM?
They did. We ended up with critical mass. That's one of the things that shows that you are making progress when your meeting is no longer at 7:30 in the morning.
In a small room because I don't think many people are going to be coming to it. That's progress in itself. I know one of the organizations I'm in. We have that epiphany. We are like, “We have so many more women involved in this organization now that we can now have separate programming. At this different time during the day, it was like, “We have crossed over to something different,” which is exciting in itself.
You and I both have seen in the time that we have practiced such progress in that respect. There are many extraordinary women coming into the profession and thriving.
It's so nice to see that and to be a part of that. I always think to help everyone rise together, which is always a good thing. You have talked about onsite activities and things like that, but what about navigating a law firm in terms of newer attorneys coming to a large law firm, Snell & Wilmer? What advice would you give to them?
The people and relationships and hard work so look for those people who you admire, want as mentors or trainers, who you see that have taken a path that looks appealing to you. If you see that and look up their bio, see what they did, see the choices that they made that had helped to advance them. It's about trust in relationships in that your word needs to be good. If you say you are going to deliver. You need to deliver on time and the thing that people are expecting and trying your hardest and working hard gets you a long way. I feel like people are more gentle and forgiving them. One would think on the outside of the law firm.
Finding organizations about which you’re passionate and then rolling up your sleeve is a good path to leadership.
Everyone remembers their path. We all remember it once from time to time as we recalled the various mistakes we have made. I don't think anyone expects perfection, but they sure expect you to do your best and to be trying. We know the difference. We know when people are all in and trying their hardest. Those people are given an advantage and the more chances you take, even when you fail, the more you are learning. I say, “Go in there and go for it, but also surround yourself with the best people that you can.”
I always think don't make the same mistake more than once. You are going to have one, but if I keep seeing the same one over and over, I want to see a new one. You got to get task this one onto the next one to learn. There’s something about like the focus and energy. You can see that in people when they are committed to things and they are trying. It's their first time doing anything, but they have a focus and an interest in excellence in that work to the extent they can. They will keep growing from there, but you can tell when someone has that focus or not.
I'm sure you have seen this many times where someone will go back and start working on a project and they will come back with questions. It's so easy to invest in the person who has gone and started reading cases or doing their homework and their mind is racing. They are thinking of things that you didn't think about. Maybe some of the paths aren't the right ones, but they are fully engaged. I always say, “A good approach is once you get an assignment, assume you are the only person now on that case. You have got to figure it out and take it from there to have that ownership.” It's so easy to invest in someone like that because they are going to make things better.
That’s the key to it is taking ownership part. That looks different ways, but having ownership of it and having that. Instead of saying, “Somebody else will figure this out and I'm doing this part of it.” That sometimes can happen because you get a piece of an assignment and you don't always know everything else that's going on in the case. If you are curious about that and you ask how does this fit together? Is this argument helpful to the overall cause of the particular case? I'd much rather see that curiosity about it. How does all of what I'm doing fit into that? The more you know in that regard, the better job you can do because you maybe think of something else that we haven't thought of when you are looking at the cases.
That person that comes back and says, “I have done this now. I know there are these other steps that will be coming up. Do you want me to start working on that? How can I help you with that?” How often are you going to take advantage of that and say, “Yes, please.” Suddenly, the person is getting more of what they want.
That's the same theme and message that you have talked about in terms of doing the work and having an interest in the work overall. Whether it's volunteering or working within the firm, it's the same approach because with that too, you have a teamwork aspect to it. You are helping the overall team. You are not you doing something alone and that always gets you more engaged too because you are engaged. You help the team. That's good advice because sometimes people are shy about that or they think maybe people will tell me what I need to know and that's it. Maybe not. Maybe when you have linked up the cases or something else you should know. We don't know that because we haven't been on the ground reading all the cases ourselves. I like that as well. That's helpful. People can be concerned or a little scared about asking those things.
We naturally are a little anxious about being told no. We are going to hear no. I have had some good mentors with respect to business development who has taught me that taking no is not now. It's the same thing, whether it's you working to get business from outside of the firm or someone new within the firm wanting to work more for someone on the team within the firm. Don't be afraid to ask. If you politely ask, you are never putting yourself in the worst position. Someone might not take you up on your offer to help at that point in time, but they will remember that you offered. Taking that chance and throwing yourself out there never puts you in a worse position.
I appreciate that. It's not a good fit because for that particular issue and someone who has more experience or what have you. I remember that and I always tell people, “I appreciate that, but here's how. We are going to work on this within the team and why. I will keep you in mind for something else.” Sometimes people don't say that to people, so they don't know. You want to encourage that leaning into things. You talked about business and client development, which is so important as you advance in a law firm and become or remain a partner. Do you have any advice in terms of that, especially for women, but people in general in terms of business development?
I went from it being something that I dreaded and was terrible at to something that I enjoyed and had success in by honestly flipping my mindset. I first looked at it from the outside thinking, “I'm going and asking people for things for myself all the time. This is awkward.” Someone had said, “Don't think about it that way and don't do it that way.” Authentically offer your help and think of it only in terms of what's comfortable for you. For me, the idea of saying, “Look at the firm. I have got some resources. You have got an employee benefits issue. I would go dig and see if we had any articles or things that I could get free of charge to people.
If I heard of an issue and said, “Here's something. I have a colleague in that space and I will bet if they wouldn't mind talking to you a little bit if you would want that.” My approach has been pursuing it in spaces where I felt comfortable, which means I felt a natural connection with an individual or an organization and they were open to it. I have never tried to knock on closed doors.
If you are dealing with folks who were needing legal services, they are comparing different options. If someone had invited me to have lunch with them, they started talking about their needs. I saw some things they needed and they hadn't hired me as their counsel yet. I'd start pretending they had. They'd mentioned certain areas and I'd start sending them things that I thought would be helpful. Not doing legal work, but being someone who will let them know I heard them. I understood what they needed and want to help. That feels a lot more comfortable and authentic for most of us.
I was going to ask you when you said, “I didn't like it and now I'm comfortable with it.” It sounded like it was a mindset change that was at the core of that in terms of your approach to the same activities. If you think of it that way in terms of you are trying to help people with their problems that you have heard them and understood what's going on and here are some resources that might help you then that's a lot easier. It feels more comfortable than, “Here. Come in and do this sales thing,” which doesn't feel comfortable to a lot of us.
I do think for people who are more non-traditional in the law focusing on the service in what you can do is a more comfortable zone than starting with the relationship. Let me explain what I mean by that. I was mentored primarily by wonderful men of another generation who told me things like, “Go play golf with him,” or take someone to a sporting event. I'm not a sports person and no one wants to talk sports with me.
I feel so sorry for anyone back in those years that I tried to talk sports with because it had to be miserable for them as miserable of an experience for them as it was for me. That was the model that a lot of folks had had success with and some probably still do, but there are so many different ways. The service around particular needs and what we can offer. That works for a lot of us who don't follow that traditional model that works for some.
There's an aspect of authenticity to it. You are comfortable. That’s your approach to so many things as you have described it as well, in terms of service in other organizations and jumping in to help and be a part of the team and cohere the team through the process of doing things together. That's a genuine approach for you, which is a variation of that. That's one of the things in determining there's no one way to do business development. It's about relationships and their authenticity and genuineness for you as well. Finding something, whether it's a mental model for something or a process that you felt comfortable with because people will respond to that. When you are genuine, people recognize that.
I will bet you see that in these interviews people have found an approach that's successful for them, whether it might have had kept doing the work or something else. They have been able to apply that in different parts of their lives and that's built upon itself.
It's either an approach or a part of your personality that adapts to different settings or also it shows up where people end up. It looks like when you see the end of it, it naturally couldn't have gone anywhere else. Given all the layers of experience, your skills, and your strong suits that you would end up in this particular role because it looks perfect for you. Along the way, it was not at all that clear.
In the end, when you look back, you go, “That makes a lot of sense.” Given me my strengths, the things that I have honed over the years, and all of the experiences that I have gotten from my different roles as well. That's another theme and it's messy along the way, but afterward, you are like, “That makes a lot of sense.” If it's my approach and even with some of the judges in terms of their approach to judicial decision-making and what it means to be on the bench, it's as varied as their individual strengths and personalities as well.
It's funny how with an end product, sometimes things look easy that wasn't so easy.
That's part of this too. It will make people feel like everybody's had some challenges in their career. I think you see the end after the sausage is made thing. You don't realize everything that goes into that. When you encounter a challenge, you are less discouraged or stymied by that because you realize lots of people have different challenges and different opportunities from those challenges. Part of it is, as you said in terms of your mindset about those even, how you view them and whether you pick yourself up and dust yourself off and keep going, or whether you take something from that and say, “I could look at it that way,” or you could look at it this way and go forward from there.
You make me think of how my husband and I have talked with our daughter and we have come to a family saying that things are either good or they make for good stories. Go in there, give something a go, and if it turns out to be, “I felt disastrous.” Then pause, heal, and reflect upon it. It's probably pretty hilarious. There's probably a good story in that.
You got to have a sense of humor about it too to move forward sometimes. Even laugh at yourself when things happen and have humility and all of that good stuff, but that continues to serve people well. You want to continue to take risks to grow. In the beginning, when you said, “I had two things I could do and this one seemed a little scarier so I wanted to do that,” which to me translates to there's more of a growth opportunity in that because I wasn't completely comfortable with it, to begin with.
The more chances you take, even when you fail, the more you are learning. Surround yourself with the best people that you can.
Many of us would reflect and look back and think the things that were the most meaningful to us were those where we looked down the path and could not see the end of the road. We didn't know how we were going to get there. We have been lucky to have opportunities like that.
Speaking of opportunities like that, you wouldn't have known when you first came to Snell & Wilmer that you would be becoming the chairperson of the firm. How does that feel?
It feels like an extraordinary honor and an opportunity. I love the firm and the values. We think in terms of our credo, which reflects that we are working for our clients, and taking care of each other and our communities and that mindset suits me. I feel like I have had such fortunate opportunities. The opportunity to lead and have been tapped for this role feels extraordinary.
I'm sure going to do my best with it to keep maintaining an environment where others get that opportunity. I will be looking at our growth. We have continued to grow and expand, but we have stayed true to those values. If you know who you are, it's a lot easier to tackle any challenge because you keep coming back to your core values as to who you are. That will guide us in the future for me as it's guided our leaders in the past.
You have had a lot of experience and leadership within the firm and have been on the Executive Committee for several years. You are not coming in cold to the leadership part, so that helps the continuity.
I have had the pleasure of serving on our Executive Committee for many years and our Close Compensation Committee for a few years and leading a practice group and participating in a lot of different activities. That has all been good as part of the training to understand the firm from a lot of different perspectives and through the eyes of lots of people.
I remember that even from the Bar Association leadership and the Orange County Bar Association when we are elected to the board of directors. You realize you will go into all of the different sections that are part of the bar when you realize the bar is this practice group and it's something else to another. Each of those sections is what everybody knows the bar to be. It's helpful to have the knowledge of all of that and touch and meet with those different sections and committees when you are running to become on the overall board of directors.
That's when you realize, “I want to take all that into account. I want to understand that and have that backdrop in order to make leadership decisions for the bar overall.” When those sections come to us with particular questions, I will have a little bit of an understanding of at least what that means. That's a microcosm feeling of what you have in terms of the law firm and having seen all of those different parts because that helps you make informed and the better decisions for the firm overall.
In any organization, in part, what you see depends upon where you sit. People have very different visions of the same entity, the same organization, but it's so important to ask questions and learn from each person's perspective because you can't assume you know if you haven't been in that chair.
The committees see different parts to say that the organization is this or maybe in part. It's helpful to know that's the impression because that can help you and say, “These people perceive this. We got to take that into account in how we are doing things.” It’s also a much more holistic view of the organization when you see that. You have had so much of that. There's a lot of good value moving forward. Rather than having someone come in who doesn't know the firm as well as you do in so many different ways. That gives you more freedom to move forward in a larger way for the firm because you are not like, “I have to learn about this. I have to learn about all these different pieces.” You have that inherently.
I think a lot of it too is to respect people's entrepreneurial spirit and their own direction in the sense that they know what path they want to take. A lot of leadership in a place like ours is you work to move obstacles out of people's way so they can run. It's fun when we can do things that clear a path for people, offices, or practice groups for them to move forward as they want to. That will be a lot of jobs is making sure that there's a lot of space for people to fully engage with their ideas and their goals. We are so much stronger if we use the resources within all of our people to move things together.
That's so funny that you would say that or state it in that way. Until you said that, I hadn't thought I'm like, “That is what you do.” I remember both in the ABA and within the firm is figuring out where people want to go or the best path is, making sure there's room for them to do that, and giving them the freedom to move forward. You are self-aware saying like, “I think this is my role.” I have seen you do that a lot of times.
That's a fun thing for me. I love that part. Part of that is I always find it to be an honor to hear people express what their goals are and what they want to build. If they are going to trust you with that information, you better be useful and be helpful. To the extent that we can help to clear the obstacles for folks. They can go where they want to go. That's a lot of fun.
If people are going in a direction that's meaningful to them and it's an alignment with the organization and the firm, you are going to have people staying because they have meaning. That's another aspect of what we want to do. I want to close with a few lightning-round questions. Which talent would you most like to have but don’t?
It’s more patience. I see peoples who have the gift of substantial patients and I have great admiration for them. It’s not my biggest strength.
Sometimes when you are a goal-oriented person, you want to move forward. That can be a challenge. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself and a trait that you most deplore in others?
The thing that I want more of for me and for others is to ensure that we are always expressing as much empathy as we can. Respect and empathy are so critical. Maybe I'm focusing on those because we have had some hard times where the temperature has risen a lot. When I, in any circumstance, do a pause and think, “I don't know what's happened in this person's life and I don't know what might make them itchy or irrational in their approach.” Something's going on that it's making somehow in their head. I seek more empathy and appreciate it when I see it in others.
That's a good reminder, in general, that often it's not about you or even the organization. If somebody reacts to something, a good thought to have is maybe something's going on and allow space for that.
I was at a memorial service and it closed with a beautiful statement that I can't repeat correctly. The bottom line was to walk with the appreciation and peacefulness of you don't ever know what's happening with someone else, but be as gentle as you can with others. They may be having a much harder time than you appreciate.
Especially now with so many different things going on and pandemic the last few years, all of that stuff too. There are a lot of various reasons why people might have challenges. Who are your favorite writers if you have time to read anymore?
I do. His name is Eric Weiner, The Geography of Genius. I don't know if you have ever read that. He got an assignment to go and write about happiness around the world through different cultures. I turned to his books from time to time when I need to laugh, keep some perspective, and realize there's a lot of joy out there and see through very different visions and different cultures and chill out and appreciate it.
I'm going to check those out. I heard of them, but I haven't read them. It sounds like we can all use that at some point. It’s a little uplifting as the author himself probably could use that. Who is your hero in real life?
Focusing on the service in what you can do is a more comfortable zone than starting with the relationship.
I have many heroes in real life. My parents were my heroes in real life. Folks who didn't have the opportunity for advanced education, but so instilled in me that I would have that opportunity. My parents adopted me at an older age and they both worked two jobs throughout my whole life. They did a lot of community service. It was what you did because you helped your neighbors in any number of ways. They did it with great joy. They showed me how to live a beautiful life and they gave me opportunities they didn't have. They most certainly are.
In the legal profession, Judge Roslyn Silver, who is on our federal district bench in Arizona and had been the chief judge during a challenging time is a personal hero. She started by talking about, being feminine and yet doing that stuff we do. She was my role model for that. She took me on and mentored me from early in my career because I think she saw me in an environment where she didn't see that I necessarily had many women around me. She's been my mentor and had showed me how feminine also combined with great strength. She's a hero to me in that respect.
I feel like she's someone who has also shown me how to ride the waves, that sometimes things are great. Sometimes they aren't, but you keep riding and keep a sense of humor about it. I'd add her. I’d add my husband and daughter too that my husband who serves on the Arizona Court of Appeals. I say he doesn't golf. He teaches others and writes law or review articles. He believes in the rule of law and does a lot to advance education about our system. Our daughter's graduating with her Master's degree in Computer Science and Robotics from MIT. I could not be more proud of her. I have been fortunate in having a lot of wonderful heroes around me.
How did you first meet Judge Silver?
I raised my hand and offered to do the work. I got to play over my head. For the county bar, it was when the federal sentencing guidelines back in ‘91 and ‘92 were going to apply to corporations for the first time. We were going to do a seminar on this. I have offered to put it together. I was maybe a 3rd or 4th year, so I had no credibility, but I could do the work. I pulled it together to moderate this panel and had people from the firm. She was at that point the head of the Criminal Division of the US Attorney's Office. She was on the panel and shortly after that, she went on the bench. I encountered her through that.
I think she saw me navigating a very male environment and she approached me at a reception and said, “I'm going to mentor you.” That was many years ago. She's become a dear friend. She was great. For someone to go out of her way, not even in her own environment to appreciate to maybe she could make a difference and she sure did.
What a rich long-standing relationship, too. That’s always nice to have people who have known you since the beginning of your practice.
Those people are our advocates and they hold the mirror up to us to reflect back and make sure that we are doing the things that are right for us. We have laughed a lot along the way too and that's your helps.
I always think sometimes for the newer attorneys feel like there's a choice. I have to do all this work, but I have to choose between that and doing other work that gets me outside of the firm as well. You have to do both at some point because that's where you get opportunities like that as well for people to see you in how you work, even if it isn't your legal work per se, and to connect with you in that way and enrich your whole career.
You and I have both seen that on our paths and probably are drawn to others who have done that too. It feels like a lot of work but doesn't so much of it also feel like it's a joy. When you do these things that you enjoy and it draws you towards other people who are doing the same type of thing, and it's very fulfilling.
Other people like your parents in terms of joyfully serving. You meet others who are outside themselves in a way. There's some commonality in that. People are not about themselves. They are also out about giving in whatever way that is. It's heartening to have that and to see people who are the same way. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party?
The queen of England would be a very lovely guest to start with. When you think about history and all the things that have shaped our world, she's seen a lot of them. Don't you think she’d be a lovely conversationalist at our dinner party?
I think she would be a lovely guest as you said, in herself, but if she’s willing to spill the tea about certain things, that would be interesting. The last question, what is your motto if you have one?
The closest thing that I have to it is what I referenced is our family saying that things are either good or they make for good stories. Turn yourself into things and walk your path. You are going to fall down, but it's okay. Keep going.
That’s the key, keep moving forward. Thank you so much for joining the show and for having this discussion. One of the joys for me in doing this as even with people who I know or worked with that I always learned new things. In this case, you gave me more reasons to admire you. Thank you very much for doing this.
It's mutual. I so appreciate the opportunity to catch up. Thank you for what you are doing.
Thank you so much.