Founding Partner, Bryant Stibel

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Moujan Kazerani, one of the Founding Partners of Bryant Stibel (alongside Kobe Bryant), shares how their company helps the technology, media, and data companies they invest in grow and succeed.  Moujan has carved out a unique role for herself, where she applies her legal knowledge as inhouse legal and strategic counsel for both Bryant Stibel and the companies in which they invest, while also operating on the business side of the operation. Tune in to hear some terrific insights from a woman who succeeds in both law and business.

This episode is powered by Posh, LexMachina and LexisNexis.

Relevant episode links:

Bryant Stibel, Women Founders Network, Trellis, Getting to Yes

About Moujan Kazerani:

Moujan Kazerani has been a Founding Partner of Stibel Investments since co-founding it in December 2010, and Bryant Stibel since co-founding it in November 2013. Previously, Ms. Kazerani served as General Counsel, Chief Compliance Officer & Head of HR and Culture at Dun & Bradstreet Credibility Corporation and later as Leader of Global Corporate Strategy for D&B (NYSE: DNB) from September 2010 to July 2017. 

Prior to D&B, Ms. Kazerani served as General Counsel & Secretary at Zag.com which launched and merged with TrueCar, Inc. (NASDAQ: TRUE) from November 2006 to September 2010 and advised on the company’s compensation and audit committees of the board. Ms. Kazerani started her career as a corporate associate at Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP. Ms. Kazerani currently serves on the board of directors of RingDNA, Tailwind International Acquisition Corp. (NYSE: TWNI) and System1 (NYSE: SST). 

Moujan also serves on TWNI and SST’s audit committees and chairs SST’s compensation committee. She received her JD from The UCLA School of Law and holds a bachelors degree in psychology from U.C. Berkeley. System1 believes Ms. Kazerani is qualified to serve on its Board of Directors because of her substantial operational and executive experience.

I am very pleased to have on the show, Moujan Kazerani, who is a Founding Partner of Bryant Stibel, and also has previously served in general counsel roles. We may talk about that in this episode. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me, MC. It is great to be on, and what a great thing you are doing for women and those interested in law.

I have enjoyed the conversations with women in many interesting positions who have great stories to tell in terms of their career paths and are helpful to the degree. Many of them have spoken of challenges that they have overcome. That in its own way is inspiring because we all meet different challenges in our life and career.

It is nice to know that people who have reached great success had those too and found a way to move through them. There is something to learn from that. Before we go into your career and your role, I want to start fundamentally with the question of law and law school. How did you decide that you wanted to go to law school and become a lawyer?

I was always interested in psychology and law, generally, both in the sense of always being interested in people and what makes people do things, why and how they do things, and the law as far as in several different ways. One is being an immigrant and knowing how important the law is for everything in the United States and elsewhere for protections, etc.

Also, in the sense of how we get to compromise this and how we use not just law but any rule, regulation or anything out there and put psychology behind it to put it all together and get people to what they all would want. This is general with respect to whether it is different religions coming together or otherwise. That is where my interests have had always been.

The story of how I chose the route of Law versus Psychology is interesting. I can go for three years in law school and get the JD and do everything I wanted to do versus with Psychology of going and getting a Master's and PhD, and then figuring out how to bring it all together. I saw an easier path of bringing it together. Not just easier but being able to see the path easier with respect to going the route of law and putting the two together.

It is less academic, too. If you are interested in the process and people, then it is very practical and applied as opposed to a more theoretical approach.

It is interesting because not everybody sees it that way but it is.

That is a unique route to law school. I would not say that a lot of people are like, "I was interested in people." There is overlap with some of our judges who have been on the show in terms of them being interested in the law initially as problem solvers. It is a way to solve a problem.

As women, we are fast to say no because we downplay ourselves and feel like we do not have enough expertise or we may not be able to provide what will be needed.

It is exactly the same when you look at it on the corporate side. I did not know if I was going to go into corporate law or litigation at the time. Any way I looked at it seemed like that would be a great way. Fast-forwarding to being in law school and the way you learn, the analytical skills that you gain, how you look at things, take things apart of the different facets of what is out there. Also, looking at different cases, putting it all together, and figuring out how to build your case, how to build your side, how to see the other side, and how to respond to that is a gift in all parts of your life.

I have seen that where I have served onboards and nonprofit boards where there might be some lawyers but it is not filled with lawyers. There are business people and other philanthropists. That is where I first noticed that legal training in itself trains you to see problems in a different way and break them down into constituent parts. When things come to the board, you provide the framework to try and figure out how to solve that problem.

It's also seeing things that sometimes are not seen initially by others, which is interesting, too. Sometimes your mind already goes down ten steps ahead, and then you are pinpointing potential issues that could come up. Whereas without that training as an attorney, a lot of times, you are only looking at what is directly in front of you, as opposed to the steps ahead.

The strategy and thinking the ten steps ahead, looking at the big picture, and all the constituent parts is the largest level of what we should be doing in advising clients, especially those with institutional issues and are repeatedly involved either in deals or litigation. It is thinking with that big picture perspective and thinking ahead for them so that you can address those before it is an issue.

We are on the same page on this one.

It is important to highlight that the way you are trained to think does not matter how that ends up, whether litigation or transactional. It does lend value at the business level and the corporate level. That is something we can move into in terms of your current role. It is a hybrid situation. Can you describe a little bit about what you do with both your company and also consulting with other companies?

At Bryant Stibel, we are partners that invest our own money. It is GP money. We are not taking LP money. We are investing in companies that we believe in. When we go into companies, it could be anything from a straight investment, which we do less of and learn more of this model where we help. Our team consists of nine individuals that have worked together for many years. We have all run different cross-sections of a management team position and roles that you think of. We have stepped in and out of those roles and have worked together running private and public companies.

When we go into a company when we are investing and helping, we can bring in operational expertise and help those companies wherever they need it. It could be more upfront or behind the scenes. It can be a light touch. It can be much heavier lifting. In particular, with respect to my role, my expertise is in legal and corporate strategy, and then legal compliance, HR, anything else that comes up. I have also ramped up culture in the past. Sometimes I will come in on that as well. As far as the fund itself, being GPs, we all run our own roles within that. I also run the role of General Counsel. I had compliance with our own plans.

It's also in terms of assessing and investing. There is the business aspect there.

We all bring in business and deals. When we bring in deals, we do everything from diligence on to decide, whether it makes sense to do the investment, run the IC meetings for that particular deal, and the determination on both the amounts of investment, as well as the role we are going to play within that company.

I would imagine it would be a plus for some companies to have the expertise you bring because some do not have their own in-house department at this stage. They need consistent legal advice or they value partnering with someone who is not just giving them money but also can help them level up to the next level.

It is nice because we are not going in as people looking to step into those roles ourselves. We are looking to only step in wherever needed and then step out as soon as we can and put our time elsewhere. It is a management-friendly style of assisting and investing. Even our investment strategies and the way we look at things is very different than most funds or platforms out there because we are a platform where we think about the management team.

We think about what we can do to help the management. We think about what would help the management and what we can do for them. It is a nice balance to venture private equity firms that come in where the number one thing is the money. Not that it's not super important to us when we are investing.

You mentioned that you all knew each other and had worked with each other previously. That is an entrepreneurial thing to start on the ground floor of Bryant Stibel. First of all, how did you all meet and work together? Sometimes people wonder like, "How do these opportunities come up to do this? How do you all work well together?" In this case, it is because you did for many years previously.

A lot of it is about saying yes and then figuring it out. As women, we are fast to say no if we think that, whether we downplay ourselves and feel like we do not have enough expertise or we may not be able to provide what will be needed because of family commitments or otherwise. You do not know that until you do it.

We say, "I have not done this before. I have done this but I have not done 100% of it. I do not think I am ready for that." Do not do that to yourself.

Men will readily say yes and think that they will gain experience. That is part of what happened down the line when we started to do this new venture. Initially, I started working with this team when we took Dun & Bradstreet's business that had been under-managed. We took it private, operated it privately, and then went on to merge it with Dun & Bradstreet. We ended up taking roles within Dun & Bradstreet. I was the leader in corporate strategy. Slowly, we stepped out to do what we had been doing on the side together for more full-time.

Did you all come to that thinking at the same time like, "This is good, and we like this. This could be a business. This could be its own thing?"

We have been doing the investments on the side. All of us had been helping some of the entrepreneurs on the side, whether within our field or generally speaking but particularly in the LA community. It was natural that the more we did it in the years that went by, we progressed to something that lent itself to stepping away and doing it full-time or at least giving it a go. At the time, Kobe Bryant was joining and wanting to be a partner. We saw a lot of opportunities, both with him as part of the team and where we could take it down the line.

Was that a relationship that one of your partners had previously?

When you work with people you like, no matter where you are at, it makes everything better.

One of the partners was given the connection, and they ended up meeting. It took off and made sense. There were a lot of agreements unexpectedly. That put the little fire on us to get it off the ground. That is not to say that we do not miss operating companies, especially after so many years. Sometimes you are helping other companies, and all you think about is, "Can I go and do it myself? It would be so much fun if I were doing it." There are positives and negatives. It is like the difference between being in-house counsel versus being an outside counsel. There are positives on both sides. Sometimes you do one, and you are like, "I need to go in and do the other," and then you do the other you are like, "I can go back." You have all these options.

Part of the show is I want people to think about the different options. If you choose one, you do not have to stick with that forever. You can decide to be moved between different positions and bring the experiences to each of those. There are pros and cons to each. Sometimes, it is the opposite. You are one role, and you are like, "I wish X," and then you go to the other role, and you are like, "I have X but now I wish Y." There is something different about each of them.

Sometimes you do not recognize that fully until you are in the position and you go, "This is different." There is a reason. In-house, you have one client. You get to know a lot more about the business and to even be involved in business operations and decisions. You are part of the team but you miss the variety of having a number of different clients, having different issues come up, and not being as deeply involved in their business operations but having a much wider swath of experience.

When you are in-house, especially in a General Counsel role, you are much more general. You are not specifically within a particular field of law and become an expert. There are such differences, and you do not have to pick one over the other all the time. Sometimes doing one and then going and doing the other will make you even better at your job.

It gives you that experience. I think about that in what I do in terms of Appellate Law. There are those of us who did trial work and other kinds of trial court litigation before specializing in appeals. We have a different perspective, where somebody might go straight into appeals. We know how the sausage is made. We know what happens at trial. We have a way of teaming up with trial counsel. We feel the pain, and we understand.

We know that sometimes you are trying to do the best you can at the moment. It is not going to come out as a perfect little package. We will work with that. That is how life is. It is a little messy, and we will figure out what to do. I agree that different experiences can layer different parts of your skillset. When they are all put together, it is bigger than the sum of each of the parts.

Along the way, you make some great contacts too, which are always helpful. I am always telling people to stay in touch with people just like we have stayed in touch for so many years. Take advantage of the relationships that you have built.

I think of that as something from your business experience that you are good at and think about. I think about my friends who work in the nonlegal C-Suite side of companies. They are much more focused on relationships in that way. In law school, we are so focused on studying. We do not think about it the same way but it is what makes life fun and interesting. To have people you have worked with for a long time and have teamed up with is part of the fun.

When you work with people you like, no matter where you are, it makes everything better. No one wants to go in and hang out with people or work with people when you do not want to be with them, and you are trying to avoid each other, etc. That is not to say that in any relationship, there are no ups and downs but that is more in general.

I still remember when my kids were like, "How come you want to go to work?" I was like, "You go to school and enjoy playing with your friends, hanging out, and learning. That is what I like to do, and that is what I do at work." That is the idea of building those relationships and also the learning experience. Every day we are learning something. You are gaining additional experience and knowledge. For me, that is very fulfilling.

Even in the in-house context, there are a lot of people who work for companies in a general counsel or CLO capacity who shift all the way to a purely business side role in the company. You have a mix of that given what you are doing in terms of having the deals and investing. You have a partner role but also a General Counsel role for your own company.

You provide that advice for other companies. You can tell me that there are tons of other people who do it exactly this way but I do not think so. You have an interesting mix of the purely business side and still the legal side. I have seen people completely make the jump, as opposed to enjoying both at the same time.

It is nice because I am comfortable with the legal role, particularly legal strategy and corporate strategy, which I have done forever. There is that newness and learnings that come with something that you have taken off for the last number of years, as opposed to a lifetime.

It is an interesting way to keep you engaged and growing in your professional life. Having that anchor like, "I know this is the distinguishing factor that I bring. I have this deep knowledge in this particular area, so I can always know this particular thing. I am doing a value add while I still might be learning other types of skills."

I always like having other interests. I enjoy being onboards of nonprofits, advisory boards, and boards of public companies. In each of those, there are learnings, growth, and relationship building that I enjoy. It is nice to be able to take advantage of it when and if we can. It does not always work out but if we are able to, it is an added bonus.

We can talk about that, too. You do serve on at least two boards that I know of. There may be more. You can talk about that, too. In California, we have a law that strongly encourages companies to have more women on their boards. There may be people who are thinking about that. What are some things to consider?

Whether it is the California Law encouraging it or otherwise, if you look at most businesses, whether you are talking about board roles, management roles, or positions generally in companies, there is ultimately a consumer, whether it is a business, initially that leads to a consumer in the other end or otherwise. Almost always, it is for a company of people that are of different genders, colors, nationalities, religions, etc. To fully understand a business and be able to meet the goals that it has for all of its consumers down the line, whether it is direct or indirect, you do need to have a broad perspective.

I am a true believer in diversity when it comes to everywhere for every role or every area because it is the best for the company. It is for the benefit of the shareholders, the company, and the consumers because you bring all that difference in how you look at things together. By bringing it together, we are solving the issues in a different way. We are expanding the business and the roles. I am a big believer in that. That is what we implement within companies when we go in and try to help as far as employment, recruiting, and team building are concerned. That can be very fulfilling.

For me, it has been great because you are learning about different companies and processes, and you are getting involved in different ways. That is why there are boards of nonprofits. There are educational institutions as well as private and public companies. There is that wide variety. In a legal role, you can add a lot.

I am serving on a comp committee to audit committees. These are things I did as a General Counsel. I ran them. I know what it entails, whether from when I was in-house or at Gibson Dunn as an outside Counsel, where we did this often. How many times did I sit in on meetings when we were doing different transactions? It is an easy path and role for people because we already understand it. We already know it. We know what we are looking for. There is a lot that we can add to our knowledge, the way we look at things, and our analytical skills through those roles.

There is no one way; there is no one path. There are so many, and there could be so many fulfilling paths. 

You have a range of experience in the law to bring to it in terms of having the General Counsel role in the past. It is helpful to bring to the company also. In nonprofits, it is helpful to have legal minds. Sometimes you can help cut through things towards, "These are the things we need to know the answer to before we make a decision."

Going into law, and that training and expertise that we get, and the way of looking at things, does help in varied instances. It is nice for us to be able to recognize that and take advantage of that when we can.

When you initially came into the light, you were thinking about psychology and people. It sounds like you have applied that interest in a very practical way in both the business and the legal side. Is that how you see it? Do you see that it is coming together?

It does come together in everything that we do. Especially when you understand what people are trying to achieve, whether it is within your own company or another company, you can better help them get to where they want or find other solutions to the extent that the particular solution may or may not work for whatever reason.

In negotiations, whether in litigation, when you are trying to come to a settlement or in a corporate situation where you are trying to negotiate a deal, knowing what each party cares about and trying to put those two things together and seeing where we can all meet head to head, where we can see eye to eye is a lot of psychology.

It is about, "How do we do this nicely? How do we do this in a way where we are helping each other, as opposed to screaming and not getting anywhere going around in circles way?" It is a different way of looking at it. Women have a great sense of that, too, with being able to see that side, having empathy, and figuring out how to use that to solve issues. Not to say that men do not but women can take advantage of that side.

Finding common ground or taking it into account is important. You have to listen for that to know because people do not lay it out there for you, especially if you are negotiating or in a litigation tussle. It is important to have that skill or to be able to know how to observe that. Have you had any mentors, sponsors or people who have helped you in your career? If so, what does that look like?

I have not been a one-person thing but I have had many along the way. What I learned is when you are a mentor and trying to be helpful to someone else, when you have a team is the best way to look at it like, "How can we be better leaders to our team members?" Part of that is to be a mentor to them to allow them to do a lot of the things themselves to lead themselves, how to look at failures, and how to do things to help them so that they can find their own way out.

That is what I remember for people who have been mentors to me. They are not just giving things to me or helping me get something but more about helping me find my way, my voice, and figure out what to do with mistakes or things that I have done without giving something. That has helped me the most because it has not led me to get one thing but it has helped me down the line in figuring out so many things.

They are helping you with the process of how to tackle problems and recognize different things that are going on in different situations. You can apply that in a number of different ways. They are giving you tools to think about things or how to navigate things.

Also, to see the things that I am doing and whether it is things I am doing well, things I am not doing well, and what to do with each. I have done things in the past where I have been like, "I do not want to have this. I can't do that." It has been nice when you have mentors that say, "Say, yes. You can. You do." It is encouragement by itself. One of the things I try to do now, especially for women, is to provide that encouragement because it goes a long way.

Paying it forward and being supportive of others is the way to recognize and thank the people who have done that for you. Thanking them directly but also to pass it on to be the same thing for someone else. That is how it keeps going.

Especially for women, it is nice to see role models. It has been done before. People can do it, and how can you do it. It may not be easy. Also, knowing that it is not easy and what it would take to do it helps because you are prepared.

Seeing that other people had challenges but have overcome them is hopeful because you realize, "This challenge I am having is different from somebody else's." People see the end of the story. They do not see all the paths, which may not have been straight to lead that particular place that you are at. There is value in knowing that it is not a straight shot for most people.

That is also why it is so great that you are doing something like this. I always commend these types of things because that is exactly what you are showing people. You are getting to the fact that it is not the end result of what they see but there is this whole path that it took and sharing that. Sometimes it is hard to share some of those things and some of the challenges but being open about it, even if it is difficult is so helpful for many people. I love what you are doing.

Thank you very much. It is very interesting, and I have learned so much from each person. I hope that others have as well. Seeing those challenges and that people have overcome them is important. Another thing that I have seen as a common thread in many people's journeys is that like you, there are certain components of their skills or experiences that all come together. It makes sense that they are doing what they are doing. Each of those parts in the path, even if it was not straight, all put you in the position you are at now. Not just in terms of overcoming challenges but that the intersection of all those particular skills or interests makes sense in terms of what you are doing.

You could see an opportunity that others would not because you had a unique perspective on that. It sounds like your role is that way in terms of having had this hybrid experience and creating that for yourself in your own company setting, and then helping other companies. It's being interested in people and wanting to see how the law can help them achieve what they want to achieve, make deals, and have good, strong companies. It seems like all of those things fit together to where you are either creating opportunities or you see them because you have all of those interests.

Not to say that you can't do it in any combination of ways. If anything, that is what I have learned through this process. There is no one way. There is no one path. There are so many, and there could be many fulfilling paths. Sometimes one happens to work, and sometimes, it is time to do something different. That might also be great. It is lucky with the law where there is so much you can do with it. That is good for people interested in law or looking at a legal career to realize.

There are so many different things to do within the law and within the practice of law. Sometimes in law school, you do not get to see that. You see certain parts of the law and certain firms who come on the campus to interview, some government, some nonprofit opportunities, and legal nonprofits but there are a few areas, types of companies or firms that come to campus.

To think about much more broadly beyond about what you can do with your Law degree is exciting and also opens up the horizons for people to be like, "I will be in a law firm setting for a while but then there is something else I might be interested in doing with that experience down the line." That is why you are here. You gave some advice there in terms of people being open-minded and seeing other opportunities along their path. Do you have any suggestions if people are thinking about being either in-house or having a more entrepreneurial aspect that you have? Do you have any advice for them?

We learn from our mistakes. We rarely learn from things that we do well.

The big thing is to give yourself a break. A lot of times, we go into something. Especially as women, if we do not do it right in the beginning, do not get it or do not know it right away, we shy away from it. My thinking is to step ahead, step forward, join the table, join the group, and take the time. It may take you extra time, and there is more work to be done to get there. If it is something you want, a position you want, if it is something that you care about, then you are going to get there, or at least you did your best to get there.

You may think that there is something that you want, and you might find out, "I thought I did but as I find out more about it, it does not match what gives me meaning or what I am most interested in." Being open to other opportunities that might be a better match at a point in time is important. We can get too focused like, "This is the thing I want to do." Sometimes it is not once you get closer to it and see what is involved.

This is as clear as day with the whole pandemic. Many people and companies pivoted, and many positions changed. That is what we saw. People started to excel, and it could have been something completely different than what they initially had signed up for that ended up working. They ended up being happy with it and loving it. You are right that you have to step in, do what you can, and be ready to pivot. Be ready to look elsewhere and change things if needed because that might be the best path forward.

It might be a perfect combination for you and something you had not even thought about before. Leaning in and focusing in one direction is good. I am guilty of this. I will focus on one thing. Maybe look at both sides of the street, not just one. Maybe there is something that would be more fun that you have never even thought about or something that you could even create that is new or a hybrid of roles. You can create things, too. You get to help a lot of different companies, and people grow and then let them go on their way after that. It seems satisfying.

In other ways, you want to run your own company and be operating it. There is room for everything. For me, the big thing is, "Am I still growing? Am I still learning? Is this still the team I want to hang out with?"

The growing and learning thing is important. If I am somewhere where I am not growing anymore, I find some way to still grow and learn things, whether it is in a separate board or something else in my life. The check is when I realize that I am doing all of these other things and learning new avenues excessively outside of a particular office setting. I am like, "Maybe that is because you are not feeling challenged enough there." You need to think about, "Do I need to create more challenges and opportunities for myself?" Is it saying, "You have maxed out and need to make some change or do something different at this point?"

I have found somewhere to learn new things and keep growing. That is the key to keep enjoying things and not getting bored. I do have one more question. There are not many women entrepreneurs and women founders of companies, especially in the technology space but in other spaces, too. It is not commonplace for that to be the case. Why do you think that is? What do you think could encourage the space for more women to be founders?

We need to support other women. That is the reason I joined an advisory board of the Women Founders Network. I love what they are doing and how they want to help and give back to women in these founding roles and provide mentorship. A lot of times, because there are so many men already in that field, it is easy for men to have mentors and opportunities. It is also easy for them to see themselves in those roles when they look and see so many that look like them in those roles. It is about giving not just women but girls that vision, help, and mentorship to get them to where they naturally want to go.

It is also about helping them realize that it is okay to fail. We learn from our mistakes. We rarely learn from things that we do well. It seems like men see that. They see others that do not succeed but they go on to succeed. It is about creating those models and showing the path. It is these shows and others that people wish to exist and what is there so that they can aspire to do the same and support them.

We, especially as women, need to be there for other women but men as well should aspire to be there for women and help. The stories we hear all the time about the issues women run into, specifically when they go out for fundraising because most of the people going in front of them are all men and how hard it is.

The funding is an issue. I hear that from women founders in terms of a lot of the money does not go to.

 They are not taken as seriously. Women have told me that they were told crazy things like, "Why are you wearing heels? That is not going to get you funding." It is about changing those perspectives. It is changing what those funders are looking at and having more women funders and writing checks. Those are all things that are going to be a huge help and stepping stone in the future.

I am proud of this show for a number of reasons. One of them is that two of our sponsors are run by women. They are legal tech companies founded by women. One of them cofounded Trellis, which is Nicole Clark. I was one of her original funders for her company. She turned around and was like, "I want to fund your show." That is one example of very supportive, tangible woman-to-woman support in different ventures. I am very proud of the show for exemplifying that support back and forth.

I usually end with a lightning round of questions. Question one: What talent would you most like to have but do not?

I would love the talent of thinking before I speak. That would be helpful in the legal setting. I know that I do a lot of that quickly but I would love to have that ability to take time before I answer questions, which is why I am giving you this answer. I can see myself jumping in. It is taking a little more time. It goes along with running around doing things and not taking enough time for myself to relax or to have time to think about other things. It is hard for me to slow down. Having the talent of slowing things down would be amazing.

I know your brain is always working fast. It is almost like your brain is working faster, and you have to get it out because there is more being processed following that like, "If it does not come out, I am going to lose all this other stuff." I am the same. I understand. What is the trait you most deplore in yourself, and what do you most deplore in others?

I would like to be able to slow down more. I want to get into meditation. It is hard for me. I would not say I deplore it in any way but it is certainly something to work on. What I do have a disdain for, especially in law and working with attorneys, are people who start with a no. I have a tough time with it, even if the ultimate answer ends up being no. It lost it for me, even though I am always thinking off the top and not being able to slow down enough to meditate but I do try to get to a yes. It is important.

That is our role, no matter where in legal. It is to try to get to a yes. That yes may not be a yes. It may be a different way of providing the yes. Let's work on it. Let's take time to research it. Given my propensity, that is something I pride myself in, and maybe some of it is psychology or otherwise. Our role is to try to see how we can get our clients to where they want to be at.

It is like that old negotiation book, Getting to Yes. That is true. That is a common comment. Lawyers are the department of no in terms of doing things. Part of that is you ask a question, and sometimes the answer is not that way. It is not no altogether. It is like, "Not that way. Let's think about something else." That is a good reminder. That is why you are a good General Counselor. Who is your hero in real life?

My mom has always been my hero. I have a very close relationship with her and have seen what she has done coming here as an immigrant with three kids on her own until my dad was able to join us. It is coming from a different culture and starting a new career, a new path, and raising her girls to want to succeed in a different environment and coming here for her girls. She has always been my hero from day one and still is.

For what in life do you feel most grateful?

My family, for sure. That goes along and goes along with the last question. It's my parents, extended family, husband, and kids. If I did not have that support system and if they were not all so supportive, I would not be where I am professionally. I am grateful for that and them.

Last question. What is your motto if you have one?

Getting to a yes is a motto for me. It is not just career-wise and legal-wise but in life. It's like, "How can we get the kids to a yes? How can we get ourselves to us to a yes in any way, shape or form?" It's not necessarily the way we see it and not necessarily in the way we are looking at it or thinking about it but where else. Let's look at it in different ways and figure that out. That is my motto. It helps in other ways too because it helps you appreciate things more when you are trying to get to what it is that you want and why, whether you get to it or not.

Thank you so much. I appreciated the discussion with you. I learned a lot. I appreciate you joining the show.

Thank you for having me. I love what you are doing. I am excited to review all the other episodes you are going to do in the future.

Thank you so much.