Episode 58: Mary Card Mina
Government Attorney and Former Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army
01:01:52
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Show Notes
Host MC Sungaila chats with Mary Card Mina, a Supervisory Attorney for a federal government agency, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (HHS), and a former Judge Advocate General in the U.S. Army. They discuss the important influences in her career as a lawyer, the valuable lessons she learned from her experience in the military, and how volunteer work shaped her as a lawyer. In addition, Mary shares the many ways lawyers, especially women lawyers, can find opportunities to develop as leaders in law. Listen in for valuable insights on leadership, meaningful work, and finding success as a team.
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Mary Card Mina
Mary Card Mina is a Supervisory Senior Financial Disclosure Counsel for a federal government agency. She joined the agency's Ethics Division in April 2020. Her primary practice area has been Government ethics, and she also has experience in administrative law, operational law/law of armed conflict, and military justice. Prior to joining the federal agency, she served as an Assistant Legal Advisor, Department of Defense, Office of Military Commissions, and Office of the Convening Authority. Before becoming a civilian attorney, Mary served 22 years on active duty with the United States Army, including two overseas tours (Korea and Germany) and two deployments (Kosovo and Iraq) retiring as a Lieutenant Colonel (05) in 2019. She holds a Master of Military Arts and Sciences from the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College; an L.L.M in Military Law from The Judge Advocate General’s School, U.S. Army; a Juris Doctor from the Columbus School of Law, The Catholic University of America; and a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science from The Catholic University of America. She is admitted to practice before the Supreme Court of the United States, the Court of Appeals for the United States Armed Forces, the Court of Federal Claims, and is licensed to practice in the State of Connecticut. Mary is currently serving as Vice President of the Board of Governors for the Catholic University of America Alumni Association as well as on the governing board for the National Association of Women Lawyers.
Transcript
I'm very excited to have on the show a fellow board member of the National Association of Women Lawyers with me, Mary Card Mina, who is a Supervising Attorney in the Federal Government.
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Mary, thank you so much for joining.
Thank you for inviting me. It's my pleasure.
One of the goals of this show is to reveal a number of different ways that you can practice law or not practice law and use your Law degree. Your experiences were unique in that regard, so it would be helpful to share with the audience. Before we get into the details of that, I wanted to start with preliminary questions of why law school and what caused you to think you would be interested in being a lawyer.
I went to college in Washington, DC. I was a Political Science major. It seemed like a natural progression to then apply to law school. I remained in the DC area. I was super inspired by all things political and the opportunities for internships. Once I’ve got to law school, my motivation became even more apparent that I wanted to serve. The law was a great way to serve. It was a shift from the Political Science serving in a political role to an attorney working to serve others.
That's a refinement but also a maturity in your own self about wanting to serve. Some folks on the show have mentioned that they saw the law as a great problem-solving opportunity. It's a way to solve problems, address issues, and have some authority to do that. That seems related to your interest in serving.
Learning to be an advocate and realizing the importance of your client are things that I learned from the law school experience. It was significant to me who I represented, who my client was, and what my purpose was in that role.
That's an important thing to recognize when choosing. You can adjust courses throughout your career but that's an important thing to think about in terms of what's meaningful to you. People want to do generally meaningful work but what is meaningful to one person is not to another. Instead of looking at particular positions saying, "I will be in a big law setting or government setting," you did a more fundamental analysis of, "What matters to me? What are the kind of ingredients that would make me feel like I'm doing a meaningful thing with my Law degree? I'm going to look for that recipe combination. It might come in a different form but I'm going to focus on those things."
That's a good way of thinking about it. That's not something that a lot of Law students are necessarily taught. It's more like, "You can choose your setting in which you practice but not necessarily thinking about those." It's a very nuanced approach to things, even out of law school. How did you choose the way that you wanted to serve with your Law degree then?
That was somewhat by accident. In between my 2nd and 3rd year of law school, I applied almost on a whim to the Army JAG Corps for their summer internship program. I remember I saw a recruiting poster in our law school, and it had a picture of a German castle. It talked about spending your summer abroad and practicing law. I was so intrigued by that, so I interviewed.
In the course of that interview, I was inspired by the recruiter in front of me. She was such an amazingly polished, put-together, and engaging speaker. I left the interview so impressed with her and the way that she presented, and then the opportunity. I applied and was accepted. I spent my second year of summer in Germany. I went to that castle that was on the poster.
I fell in love with the Army. I often tell people what it was about that summer, and this ties into my client and who my client became. I saw the Army through the eyes of three different people. The first was a soldier, and he was a paralegal in the office. He took me under his wing and taught me about the law from his perspective as a paralegal and life in the Army because it was very foreign to me. He was amazing. The senior leader of the office or the senior attorney also took me under his wing. I learned so much from him about leadership in that short two-month program.
There also was a civilian translator who was a German national. She and I became the best of friends and did a ton of traveling. She showed me Germany through her eyes. I thought about the practice of law and what better client than an American soldier and family member. As judge advocates, we also work with and help family members, soldiers, veterans, and retirees. It was that summer internship that I’ve got hooked. From there, I applied for a commission at the end of my third year of law school.
The military does a great job of training lawyers as leaders because we are evaluated on that, and we become leaders very early on.
Did you have veterans or those who served in the military in your family?
I had no prior military service in my family. I grew up in Connecticut. It does have a very strong military presence except in the area where the Coast Guard is. The Coast Guard had a very strong presence there where I grew up. It was not used to seeing someone in uniform. My family was all very surprised that I had chosen that route. I also was brought up in a patriotic environment. Also, being in DC, I went to The Catholic University of America. They are a very patriotic institution and pro-military. All of those things settled and became known to me.
Plus, they had an effective recruiter and a great recruiting poster, so that sounds pretty good. They then carried through. I have to say that. The German castle happened. That is a great story because you identify a number of individual people like the recruiter and the individuals at the particular office that you worked at in the summer. Highlights of that relationships are important. Often, it's the individuals who inspire us and emblematic like the recruiter was to say, "Not only would I like to do what that person is doing but I like to be that person."
That was my thought.
Was she super confident in the way she presented things?
Yes. I remember her also being very authentic. I walked away feeling like she was very authentic. As a civilian with no prior military experience, in my mind, I had a different view of what a recruiter for the military would be like. She was not my stereotypical expectation. I honestly didn't even know what to expect. I loved her authenticity.
I thought for me at that time, both applying for the internship and then for a commission was outside my comfort zone. It was not something I had grown up with or had always set out to do. I enjoyed that I was pushing beyond what was comfortable. I remember going to Germany that summer. I didn’t know anyone. I had been a part of this organization, so there was a lot of apprehension taking that step off the plane. A soldier in uniform met me to bring me to the office. Through all of those experiences, I thought, “I am enjoying that I am pushing beyond my comfort zone. This feels like a good fit, too."
That's an important thing to become comfortable with. Overall in your career, it's to be comfortable a little bit outside of your comfort zone and a little bit more each time but that's how you grow. It's to have new experiences and figure out how to address those. That's so in line with the way you said, "I would like to serve. Here are the components I would like to have in my career."
Also, it was very much a growth mindset in terms of saying, "If it scares me a little bit, that's good. That means I'm on the right track. I'm pushing the envelope a little bit, and that's the way I'm going to learn new things." That's good. Do you think you carried that throughout your career in terms of always wanting to be a little bit outside the comfort zone?
In my first assignment on active duty, I requested Korea. That was completely on the other side of the world. I was completely immersed in a culture different from my own upbringing, and I loved it. I felt that I was so grateful to the Army for that opportunity to travel and to experience that same thing with again the people making the assignment.
In that first role, I had actual clients. It always struck me throughout my 23 years on active duty with the Army that the clients and the people are what kept me in and wanting to serve that particular population, the soldier population, the family members, and retirees because soldiers are the best clients in the world, at least for me. I'm so honored to have had that experience. I remember the same thing from the flight to Korea, thinking, "What have I done? What am I getting into?"
I was young. That was my first job out of law school. The other significant time where I thought, "Can I do this?" were deployments. We could talk about that. The Army is a great way for women, especially, to develop as leaders and always have the opportunity to push a little bit further outside the comfort zone and get great leadership opportunities.
The other side of that is you want to push yourself beyond your comfort zone but do you always have the opportunity to do that in the setting that you are in? Do you keep getting similar things so that you are not able to push the envelope, and you have to find other ways to do that? The second thing is the leadership component. Interestingly, you say that because it's not something that law firms or law practices necessarily pay a lot of attention to.
We talk about it but we don't pay attention to that in terms of training newer lawyers or even more senior lawyers in terms of leadership. It's not as intentional. It's more like, "Now you have a leadership position. Go figure it out." It's more likely that you have to feel that for yourself but it sounds like you are saying you had natural opportunities to do that all along the way.
I always think that law schools should teach lawyers as leaders or there should be more formalized training programs. The military does a great job of training lawyers as leaders because we are evaluated on that. We become leaders very early on. In my first assignment in Korea, for example, I was a Supervisor. I was just out of law school, and I was supervising three paralegals. That was my first job, and then it continued from there.
At the end of my career, I was the deputy second-in-charge in a relatively large legal office. We had 80 people. My job was to lead that 80-person office, and the Army well-prepared me with leadership skills and leadership training, and certainly, the deployment experiences. I was in charge of a small office when I was deployed to Iraq. Being a leader in a deployed environment is something that is not even comparable with the opportunities that you have to lead.
One thing I can think of is Tom Cruise from A Few Good Men doing that in-court litigating. Is that the work that you did or is it other kinds of work?
To go back to pushing outside the comfort zone and what the practice of law was like in the Army, I have focused a lot so far on the geographic setting of where I have been for three years deployed environment. The thing about the practice of law, and I would encourage anyone to think about this, if you like doing something different and always learning new things, a military attorney is a perfect job for you.
In the course of my 23 years, I moved 13 times. That's thirteen geographic moves. Each of those moves, 1, 2, or 3 years depending, I typically would have 1, 2 or 3 jobs. Almost every two years, I was getting a new job in a new practice area that I had to learn. There was always something new to learn. A lot of the learning is on-the-job training. A lot of it is in the classroom. That, for me, was the best part. I never wanted to practice in one particular area. I enjoy learning a little bit about everything.
As you end your career in the military, you become a leader of an office where you know a little bit about everything and your team are your subject matter experts. That has been something that I have enjoyed learning a bunch of different areas of the law. For example, legal assistance, claims, International Law, prosecuting, and defending. I had a couple of jobs that were even non-legal. I was in charge of the Army JAG Corps recruiting office, so I then became a recruiter.
I was always learning, and I enjoyed that learning environment. The military also pays you to go to school at certain points. I was paid to be a student, and I received an LLM and also a Master's degree. The learning part of the military also appealed to me the opportunity for advanced educational opportunities.
I didn't think about that but that's right. There's a strong educational component with serving in the military generally. Your LLM and your Master's, what are those focused on?
If you like doing something different and always learning new things, a military attorney is a perfect job for you.
It is focused both on Military Studies. The Master's is from the Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth. It's a Military Master's of Arts and Sciences. One thing that those could do for me later on for my third act is teaching Military Law in a law school. Those would be great resources or experiences to have to pursue that goal and be a Professor of Military Science also.
I know that the LLM for foreign students is very helpful but also the LLM in tax and other things like that for some practitioners have. Generally, the LLM is for somebody who wants to teach down the line. That's a lot of foresight in terms of future opportunities. One of the things I like about Appellate Law is the subject matter changes with every case that I have. It's not like there's only one substantive area of the law that I'm working with, and I like that, too. If it were just one, it wouldn't be as interesting to me because like you, I also like to learn new things and get up to speed on new areas of the law.
At least from our perspective, the judges are generalists. They are doing lots of different kinds of cases. We can have that mindset when we are learning a new specific area in a case. Also, there's an additional moving part in that, which is when you said moving to different places. The travel part is exciting but also stressful. The leadership part is super important in that because you are changing your team. You are changing your area a lot, and then you are changing your team every few years. That's something else. You need those leadership skills or else that would be even more challenging.
Resiliency too is so important for soldiers, family members, and veterans. It's important to have those resiliency skills.
You mentioned at the beginning that the best clients to have are our soldiers and their families. What were you thinking of when you said that?
When you think about the world situations and how much unrest we have and where soldiers are always in harm's way somewhere in the world. To be able to do something to help ease their mind so they can focus on whatever their particular mission is something that became important to me. The same thing with retirees that have served 20 or 30 years, and have moved a gazillion times, to give something back to them, to take one problem away or help them figure out how to solve a problem, was helpful. Some of our soldiers are young, and there are a lot of opportunities to teach. Also, it's to show your clients how to navigate not only this situation but situations in the future.
One example that best demonstrates the client and helps the client focus is I had a legal assistance client when I was deployed. She worked with EOD. One of their roles is to defuse roadside bombs. It's super stressful and precise work. My client was a senior in that role, and she had a horrible situation with a landlord-tenant issue back home.
We were deployed in Iraq. She is out there defusing roadside bombs but in the back of her mind, she is worried about a landlord-tenant issue. I was able to help with that issue and take that off of her plate. To me, I feel like that is such a value that we, lawyers, can give to our clients. Again, it is to take those things away or attack those problems for them so they can focus on their very important missions.
That is the essence of it. We are here to solve problems but also to help alleviate the stress and be the one to focus on it so they don't have to. There are still legal problems in that outcome, whatever it is but along the way, the legal process is very stressful on top of everything else. Sometimes, when you are not representing individuals, you can lose sight of that a little bit. If you are representing a company or an entity, you sometimes don't have that. You are not conscious of it in the same way.
Companies have the same stresses with regard to litigation. At least people in the company have some stress but you can see it a lot more. It's a higher relief when it's an individual who is very attuned and excellent in what they do but maybe thoroughly perplexed by the legal system because it's something they haven't had to navigate at all. It's helping to explain to them what to expect.
If you are in their world too, situations become magnified, if you are in a deployed environment, overseas location, or far away from where the issue is happening, so be that understanding, supportive role.
On the show, I interviewed Antoinette Balta, who is the Cofounder of the Veterans Legal Institute out here in California. She provides a lot of nonprofit services to veterans and their families. It's the same thing. We are trying to help in other discrete areas of their lives. She also served, so she understands the needs there. It's good to know that there are also those nonprofits that are doing that work also. You are doing a good job of recruiting. It sounds interesting.
I hadn't realized about all the travel and the changing of the roles. I had assumed you take on one thing like you would in a law firm. You can dabble between two but choose litigation or choose transactional, and narrow your focus on that eventually. That sounds like the government service, and military service is one of those few areas still where you can still have that generalist approach to a number of areas.
There are ways in the military practice to become more specific in areas of the law. We use the term broadly skilled. To be a broadly-skilled judge advocate is what we aspire to. For me, at the end of my career, I wanted to be a leader manager of offices. Some people chose to, at that point, specialize in particular areas, another end path or what you aspire to as a military judge advocate is to become a judge, either a bail judge or an appellate judge. There are great opportunities for those that stay in for a career and get to that finish line but also even those that served the initial commitment for four years or a couple of years after that. There are so many great opportunities regardless of the time.
That's one of the things, too. I thought I was going to do my initial time and leave. Sometimes, people think conversely they have to commit to twenty years, and they don't. You make your initial commitment, and then you make your decisions from there. There also are civilian opportunities, and it's important to mention that, too.
You can become a civilian attorney with the Department of Army, Department of Defense or service branches. In those roles, you don't move, so you can serve in that capacity as a civilian. I had some great civilian attorney counterparts in the various offices I worked in. They are called Law Civilian Paralegals. Those opportunities are plentiful as well.
I hadn't realized that there's that mix of opportunities. You talked about how there are a lot of good training and leadership opportunities in those roles. I might be putting you on the spot but what do you think are some of the key leadership lessons you learned from your service and leading others?
There are so many. For me, the Army always struck me as a team, and I always led the office as a team. The military is very hierarchical. We have ranks but being a team was always the aspiration. The best offices that I was a part of had leaders at the top that treated us like a team. There should always be room for people to voice their opinions, ask questions, and give input.
At a certain point, leaders need to lead, be decisive, and move out. To make sure that you incorporate all sorts of opinions, input, and solicit them, was important in the military. From what I learned in the military, taking care of people is something that we focus on. Where we focused on in the Army I was in was the people and the mission. If you take care of the people, the people will take care of the mission. I learned some lessons about that.
In the military, we find ourselves in some more remote locations. When you are in a more remote location, you need to be checking on your team personally. Are there personal issues at home that are impacting their performance? I learned a lot about compassion and empathy. Everyone presents a different situation. It's hard to be a single parent in general but it's harder to be a single parent in the military.
That wasn't my experience, so I had to always be thinking about what the experience of others was like. Empathy and compassion are keys in the military in terms of leadership. Those are some of the things that come to mind. Also, there's diversity and inclusion. The military is so diverse, and that's also one of the things that I love about it. Learning how to lead diverse groups of people is something that you get on-the-job training.
I was going to ask about that because there are so many different backgrounds and levels of experience from all over. Diverse teams happen, so it's a good experience with that. It is heightened in situations when you are far away from home, and the team is basically it. The idea that sometimes people lose sight of is the point you make about when you take care of the people. When you are talking about the people, you are talking about your team as well. You take care of your clients but if you take care of your team that you are working with and their needs, the clients will be well-served. It flows from there.
The military is very hierarchical, but being a team was always the aspiration.
One of the things too that is prominent in the Army or the JAG Corps for me is your success isn't personal. Your success is when those that you lead are successful. You measure your success on the success of your team. It's by developing your team, focusing on their strengths, working with them on the areas they need to improve on, and always focusing on your team's professional development and personal/professional goals. That's very centric in military leadership, too.
When you are reviewed, that's something that people focus on.
You are evaluated on the leadership. Certainly, what you are doing to develop your subordinates is a huge part of your evaluation.
That's interesting because that's generally not an element of the review in the law firm environment. I know it is in the corporate environment as well. I see that interest more across the board and in-house counsel with their teams because, in a corporate environment, you are also evaluated on that inside and outside legal in terms of growing the team and their capabilities broadly.
It isn't something that generally comes up in law firms, so I wonder if that would be a way because there's always a question of, "How do we encourage people to mentor more? How do we encourage training?" It often happens by watching and seeing what people do, being engaged initially as an extern, and seeing how things were done and taught along the way. That's some of the biggest joys I have had. It's seeing people blossom, grow, and helping nudge or guide them in the direction that they might need to reach the next level. As it is rewarding to do work with our clients, it's rewarding to see our team grow as well.
I have been out of the Army for a couple of years now. I am so happy to hear from former subordinates who reach out and still ask for my opinion or guidance, whether the assignment decisions are coming out or if they have issues they are working through in their job or with leadership. That feels like a compliment. I am now away from it. I have retired and have moved on but I'm still sought out for advice. To me, I was successful, at least with that person that they still feel compelled that they can trust me and want my input.
In some ways, you are even freer to give that since you are not in command and in that setting. You have all of the knowledge and experience with that. You are right that a lot of people wouldn't either feel comfortable reaching out or think about reaching out to do that. If people even move between firms, sometimes they forget that you can still talk to someone.
They can still give you advice even though you are not in the same work setting. That's how you grow your sponsorship and mentorship. It's keeping all the great advice and folks you've gotten advice from along the way and not saying, "I don't work there anymore, so I can't talk to them." Also, they have to feel comfortable thinking that you would be willing to do that.
You have been successful in that regard that you care about them as people because some people don't reach out when you are not in the same work setting anymore because they think, "The reason you had an interest in me was because of the position that you had as opposed to you being interested in me. You are interested in me in whatever setting I'm in to see that I'm going to succeed." That's the mark of your success, and you care. You are not just saying that about your team. You care about them, and they know that.
As I do that for others, others do that for me. The connection with others from the military service is something that means the world to me.
It might be intensified because of some of the settings you are in that you are able to bond in a certain way and have much more connections knowing about personal lives and needing to understand that so that you could gauge the stress and what's going on with people. That might not be something you would have in a business setting.
You might feel like you don't have the opportunity to learn it or you don't want to pry. It comes across in the setting you are in. It allows for those closer, tighter relationships, which themselves are their own reward in many ways. You are a couple of years out. You mentioned possibly teaching as the third act, so where are we now? Are we in the second act?
Yes. I left active duty and took a couple of months off, and then started applying for jobs. I'm coming up on my two-year anniversary working with a Federal Government agency. I'm a Supervisory Attorney, and I work in the ethics section. I lead a small team but it is great. I have a very diverse team. I have members of my team that are former military. It's going back to being authentic. There are certainly differences from active duty to a government agency to a law firm but I can be my authentic self in my government role. It is very similar to a military role in terms of leadership and the things that I can do as a leader.
I'm very happy about my second act. Again, transitioning from the military to a Federal Government agency is very seamless in a lot of ways. The subject matter, ethics, was a common thread for me in the military. We served as ethics counselors, and that's usually an additional duty in the military. For multiple assignments, I was an ethics counselor.
That's the one area in that I have subject matter expertise. That was the area that I sought from my post-Army jobs. They were all expertise that I was looking for. I also enjoy that area. It has been a lot of fun and lots of work. We have with the presidential transition, and all my team was involved with that. That was lots of high intensity and extra hours but lots of fun.
There's a whole change in personnel at many levels. You have to do the vetting in that regard, which would involve ethical issues as well. That's a whole lot of work in a short time.
I had in-person interviews but I have never worked in the office.
There's COVID. That's the other part. That's its own challenge. That's true that something is different when you are working remotely with the group that you have worked with previously than when you are starting fresh with a group you have never worked with in the same space, and you are all over the place, trying to bring the team together in that regard. To cohere in the first instance is its own separate challenge.
I don't think enough people have talked about that because of COVID. I have seen that. I changed work firms during COVID. I worked with my set team in the early part and then hired a whole new team. I hired them, and then working with them feels different. How do you do that? We had opportunities to meet in person outdoors, and we did regularly to have that feeling of teamwork and to get the chemistry that happens when you are in person. You had experience with that from having to move to different places and to have different teams all the time. You probably brought some good skills to that.
I didn't even realize that I would need those skills. In one of my last offices on active duty, I had teammates in other geographic areas, so I was figuring out a way to stay connected with them and keep them as part of the team. I employed those skills and lessons learned in this new environment.
Do you have any tips on how to encourage teamwork and cohere people in that setting?
It's all about building trust and letting your team know or trust that you always have their best interests at heart. It's being authentic, sharing information appropriately but letting your team know about you, who you are, where you have come from, and finding out about them, the information that they are comfortable sharing, where they are from, and their families. It is different in a Federal Government job or the military. Taking an interest in people goes a long way. We started to have virtual coffee breaks. I did that early on. They are optional. There's no agenda, and you can't talk about work. It is what you would talk about if you run into each other in the hallway.
If you take care of the people, the people will take the mission.
That's what everybody has issues with replicating. They are like, "What about those incidental discussions in the hallway, the water cooler conversations or getting coffee in the kitchen?" That is hard to replicate but that's a good way.
It helped. We then have monthly team meetings. I still do and always have an icebreaker at every meeting. I try to make it fun, interesting, acknowledging, and not threatening. For our February meeting, we had team Olympics. I found some trivia questions about the Olympics, and we answered those. I had these Olympic medals from my son's toy chest that I put our names on.
It's something fun to build that sense of teamwork. Weekly, I send email updates. In those updates, I always try to include something fun, different or whatever is trending and generate some discussion. Those are ways to feel connected in this environment. Those are things that you can do to bring about something more fun or personal that can help.
I always have the concern of like, "I don't want to seem like I'm intruding into your private life," if people are more private about things. There are ways to do it better that are fun and engaging. It shows an interest in people as people, which is important. We are all humans, and it's good to recognize that we are flawed and also have strengths. It's good to recognize that and try to help people grow and bring out their own strengths.
Who knew that you would need those skills of moving from place to place and cohering teams quickly? You are like, "I didn't see myself having to use those skills in this way but they came in handy." That's good. I'm glad that worked out and translated. That's another indication that the transferable skills from it are high from the different states of entropy that you had to deal with, whether it's brand new subject matters, people or location. The different locations all around the world, on the one hand, are very exciting but after a while, they could be very difficult.
I tried to approach each move as positively as possible but honestly, the first month in a new place and the last month in a place have a lot of hellos and goodbyes. The positive way to look at it is you can almost reinvent yourself in every assignment if there are things that you want to change or you can set an intention for your next assignment or next location. Also, if you get close to people, it is hard to leave them and move on. It's a blessing and a curse to move.
There's a good and bad to each of these things. You are a remarkably warm and well-rounded person, so it has been a positive impact on you. I appreciate your ideas and lessons in terms of leadership and team-building because that's something we, as lawyers, either don't focus on enough generally or talk about in that context. Sometimes, people think of it as a separate thing. It's not integrated but you have learned to integrate it because of the way you were raised as a lawyer in your service because it's integrated into that setting.
For lawyers that want to get leadership opportunities, there are so many ways to do it in your office setting but then volunteer work. You can start by joining an organization that aligns with your values and interests and then bring on the board and offers leadership. I would encourage any attorney to think about ways that they can lead in their community or their children's PTO. There are so many ways that you can get leadership opportunities, and then use those opportunities to build on.
Those are all different ways of serving, giving back, and having those leadership opportunities. That's something that I talk with newer lawyers about. Those can happen within the firm but most often, they start outside the firm. I tell them not to be narrowly focused. There are a lot of other ways to do good by serving a nonprofit board, working with the bar associations, and in something that you feel strongly about where your values are aligned. It's a win-win because you are getting the leadership opportunities and contributing to the community in a good way, which always makes you feel good.
Those are great opportunities for people to have leadership but you had so many opportunities through your work and service that I have always been impressed. On top of that, you also had a leadership outside that in the Women Lawyers Association. For me, all the Women Lawyers Associations I have been involved with leadership and otherwise has such a broad base of people with so many different practice areas and geographically, and in a national organization that opens your eyes. You get to see all the different ways of being a lawyer and meet people you would never otherwise meet at all because you don't run across them in your practice.
For me, my volunteer resume is just as important to me as my professional resume. I probably have learned even more from those opportunities. In every work I have been through, I have tried to volunteer in some way to the community that I'm a part of, even though temporarily, and meet people from all different backgrounds and commit time to issues that I'm interested in. I encourage that. I did a prison ministry at one assignment. It seemed interesting.
I wasn't there as a lawyer. I was there with the prison ministry. I was on a board for a food bank when I was stationed in Oklahoma. That was a profound and great experience learning about grant writing and all the different things a nonprofit needs to do. I look at food insecurity now in a very different way because of that volunteer experience.
That's true. You get to learn about whole new sectors and parts of the community and also how other organizations are run. What is the lifeblood of some of those organizations? Grants are part of them, and it does change your perspective. In the nonprofits I have served on, I was like, "Where does the funding come from?" It often can drive the programming. If there's restricted funding for certain kinds of things, it impacts what you are able to offer and how you are able to offer it, which until you have seen that, you don't recognize that connection.
Your point when you are moving to different locations is a good way to get into the community. It's to take ownership of the community and then also a great way to meet other people who also like to give back in that way. When you were in new places, how did you learn of those opportunities and find them?
They all almost found me. I always had the thought as I arrived at a duty station that I wanted to volunteer and be involved in the community. Very early on, for all of the opportunities I mentioned, either someone mentioned in a conversation like, "This organization has a need," or there was a volunteer fair. The person I talked to with the prison ministry sold me on the idea that it was something I had never done. I thought that as a lawyer, to have that experience was going to be something very helpful for me, and it was. They found me. I was looking but I had my ears open.
I did it quickly as I moved to new places because, in some places, I was there for 1, 2 or 3 years but that was always important because I was raised to volunteer. I volunteered in the hospital in high school all the way through. I was keeping that volunteer work that my parents had always instilled in me as continuity. Wherever you go, wherever you are in the world, there is an organization that needs help. One of the great things too about volunteer work is you typically don't need a lot of experience.
That's right. They are like, "We are happy to have you."
They are like, "We will train you. We will teach you whatever it is that you need to know." I enjoy the experiences of always learning. Some people might think, "Where do you find the time?" For some of these things, it's not even that much time. It can be 1 hour a week or 4 hours a month. Whatever you give, I have found organizations are also very happy to have that time.
Also, to adjust it to what you are able to provide as well. I was raised the same way in terms of serving and giving back as soon as you can in different ways. You were recognized that there was a certain level of continuity. Before you said that, I was like, "I bet that was a good thing for continuity," and you were like, "I'm very conscious of that," because you are moving and there are a lot of other things that are changing. The constant is you and your desire to serve in a number of different ways in a true servant leadership way.
You wanted to take your legal job and down on a personal level. Becoming part of the community means serving that community and finding ways to do that directly as well. There's remarkable continuity across all of that in terms of what motivated you and what keeps propelling you forward. There's a thread that's common in your story, which is beautiful to hear.
I'm so glad that you touched on serving through community and bar as an opportunity for leadership and service. That's an important thing, and I don't know what people would think about that. That's why I hope you will discuss it a little bit. You already have enough going on if you are serving in the military all over the world. On that service in itself, on top of that something else, does add an extra layer.
Wherever you go, wherever you are in the world, there is an organization that needs help.
For those who don't have the immediate opportunities for leadership where they might be working, that is a great opportunity and way to grow as a person, give back, and get some leadership training in the way even if it's training on the job as it were, which is the truth. A lot with a lot of nonprofits here are like, "Handle this. We need help."
Service gives you a perspective and helps you focus on what's important. In high school, I can be very upset about something but in the grand scheme of things, is it that important? Volunteering and serving others in the community gives you a good perspective on what is important.
Sometimes, it can be hard to get beyond those various annoyances in the day but it helps you rise above that a little bit. If you feel that you have meaning in your work itself, then it can get you past those road bumps as well. It's helpful in a lot of different ways. Getting rid of the ego a little bit and pulling that outside is helpful. You are like, "It doesn't matter in the big scheme of things. Is this something I'm going to be worried about in a year?" Often, it isn't, so you can let it go even if it might be hard to when you are worked up about it.
That was one thing I was discussing with a friend. We vent. Women will call each other even at work like, "Can you believe this happened?" We vent and relive it, which is okay. It's good that we are sharing but sometimes, you have to let it go and move on from it. That balance is hard. We want to talk about it, and that's how we bond with each other as women in many instances. We have to help each other move beyond that and say, "We have had the moment. We have gone over it. Here's how we are going to move forward."
It's that delicate balance between not ruminating too much, learning a good lesson from it, and being able to move on because if you don't have any reflection, then you are bound to run into the same thing and not learn something. You don't want to hold it forever because that doesn't let you move forward. It's an important combo there. Normally, I end with a lightning round of questions. Can I ask you a few of the lightning round questions?
Sure.
Which talent would you most like to have but don't?
There are so many but maybe about letting things go. I'm always like, "I shouldn't have said that. Why did I say that?" I'm replaying the conversations over and over. I want to be able to move on.
Who are your favorite writers?
One of my all-time favorites is Nilofer Merchant. She wrote a book that we featured with NAWL. I love her work.
I remember that one. That was a good one. Who is your hero in real life? It sounds like you might have more than one.
It's my son. He inspires me. My son is my hero at the moment and also my husband.
This might tie into the next question. What in your life do you feel most grateful for? That might be the same answer.
Those are my husband, my son, and my army of friends. What I mean by that is throughout my time in the Army, we have formed this wide circle of female Army judge advocates. My sister’s in the arm, I am so grateful for. That force and bond are strong. We still continue to this day. Also, I'm grateful for the ability I had to serve in the Army. There are a lot of things.
There's a lot of that but family and good friends are the core. You are moving all the time, so it would be hard to have that continuity of friends. That's great that you were able to create and maintain that.
I'm still friends with my circle from childhood. Some of it is because I'm an only child, so I have that creating family thing. My answer would be my family, and then my friends that are like family.
It sounds like you are the glue in both of those. I have my childhood friends. There are a couple of us who are good at reconnecting with everyone. We always know what's going on with different people and are able to bring the group together at different points. There is always 1 or 2 people who are that glue and are able to bring people together. Given the tightness of your childhood friends and your Army friends, you might be one of those people who help with the bonding. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest?
The first person that comes to mind is Mother Theresa. I would love to hear her story. These are hard. There are so many.
That's fitting with your theme of service in so many different ways. That's someone who embodies that. Here's the last question. What is your motto if you have one?
There are so many. This 2022, my motto is that term extra but with thought and strategy. You can't be extra in everything to think about strategically, "What do I want to be extra in?"
You can't be all things to all people. We try but generally, it doesn't work.
I do love being extra. Extra all the time for everyone is not possible. You shouldn't be extra in all things. The things that you choose to go all-in and make that a conscious choice that you are going to do are important. Where do you focus your time and energy, and what brings you joy?
That's a good criterion. Sometimes, that can be overrun by what I feel obligated to do.
There's that with what you have to do. In those hours or minutes that are yours to be extra or not, think about where you were extra.
That could change over time. There are different skills you want to develop or areas you want to concentrate on but no matter what, it's being intentional about what those are at any time. Thank you so much. I enjoyed this. I learned much about your experiences. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you.