Duane Morris Partner and Los Angeles Office Head

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M.C. Sungaila sits down with Cyndie M. Chang, the Los Angeles Office Managing Partner at Duane Morris. Cyndie discusses the importance of cultural fit in choosing a law firm -- and how that can lead to leadership opportunities-- as well as her national bar leadership positions. She describes the importance of mentors in her career, and how she pays it forward by supporting and inspiring the next generation.

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Relevant episode links:

Duane Morris, Susman Godfrey, The Southern California Chinese Lawyers Association, National Asian Pacific American Bar Association, National Association of Women Lawyers, ABA Commission on Women, The Tipping Point, Outliers

About Cyndie M. Chang:

Cyndie Chang is the Duane Morris Los Angeles Managing Partner and a member of her firm’s governing Partners Board. Chang litigates complex business, class action and commercial disputes involving contracts, products liability, business torts and fraud, insurance coverage, trademarks, and real estate. She served as President of the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association (NAPABA), Commissioner on the ABA Commission on Women in the Profession, and President of the Southern California Chinese Lawyers Association, which honored her as its inaugural Trailblazer. Currently, she serves on the Board of Directors for Loyola Law School, LA, and a board member of the National Association of Women Lawyers (NAWL). Her honors include Top 50 Women Super Lawyers of Southern California, the Daily Journal’s Top 100 California Women Lawyers, and the LA Business Journal finalist for the “Champion of Women” award.  The Council on Legal Education Opportunity (CLEO) honored her with the EDGE Award for Greater Equality and Loyola Law School honored her with the Board of Governors' Recognition Award. The Minority Corporate Counsel Association (“MCCA”) honored her as a “Rising Star.”  She is a graduate of Johns Hopkins University and Loyola Law School, Los Angeles .

I’m very pleased to welcome to the show Cyndie Chang. She is the Managing Partner of the Los Angeles Office of Duane Morris and also serves on the Partners’ Committee for the firm. She also serves in bar leadership with me, which I’m so glad. That is how we got to know each other. Welcome, Cyndie. 

Thank you so much, MC.

I want to cover a lot of different things with you both in terms of your bar leadership, your firm leadership, and whatever good advice you might have for those who might want to want to take some of the same steps that you have in your career. The first question I have starting out is, why the law or how the law? How did you decide that you wanted to become a lawyer and go to law school, to begin with? 

I’m so honored to be part of this project. I’m excited because you are an amazing lawyer too, MC. Thank you so much for doing this and having me be part of this. I didn’t have a direct pathway into how I am where I am now. In retrospect, I could see the signs of me getting into the law. When I was younger in middle school and high school, I was interested in courses and programs like the debate team, mock trials and all that, but I didn't see myself as a lawyer. 

Maybe that has to do with the fact that during those times, I didn’t see a picture of myself that was the modern lawyer and I didn’t see myself in the courtroom. That image was not available to me at that time. There were probably only a few. I thought journalism was a safe place for me. I loved reading, fact investigating and writing. I did a lot of journalism internships and all that. I even got accepted to a very great journalism program.

I had a conversation with my dad who was a big influence in my life. We talked about my career. For whatever reason, and maybe because it is a cultural thing because Chinese parents love lawyers and doctors, he did want me to go to law school. He saw the signs more than I did that I had this interest in debate and Political Science. That was my undergraduate degree. He said, “Go to law school. See how it is. It’s a degree that you could use. If you still want to do journalism, you can meld the two.”

I ended up going to law school not because I knew I wanted to be there. It was more because I was still finding myself in law school. I eventually ended up falling into somewhat of a traditional role which is you go and you interview, and then you get hired by whichever law firm gives you an offer. For me, there were not many options. I took the offer that was first given to me and I started at a small law firm. I ended up going from a small to mid-sized firm. Now, I’m at a large law firm, which is where I spent the majority of my career. 

The work environment needs to have mentors, sponsors, and cheerleaders who see your potential and tell you that you can do it. 

The beginning of my journey as a lawyer, starting with my first year as a lawyer, was very hard. I started as a litigator. I would have fallen out of the practice of law because it was so hard and the personalities that I dealt with. I remember when I was at a small law firm, people who are even on the name of the letterhead or the name of the law firm would tell me things that I was too meek or too modest, and I would never be a trial lawyer. 

Perhaps I was pretty timid and I’ll admit to that, but I also think that I was painted with the brush of unconscious bias that I was not automatically accepted as a potential trial lawyer. I had to prove myself. You have that unconscious bias that you have to fight against that people don’t think of you as a lawyer initially and don’t give you the benefit of the doubt. 

Luckily, those comments and that treatment didn't derail my career. I ended up deciding to move to another more positive law firm. I did a couple of moves to where I'm now where I felt I could thrive. The work environment is so important, and you have mentors, sponsors and cheerleaders that see the potential in you and tell you that you can do it. Because of that and with the confidence that I was given and gained, I am now a successful trial lawyer. It was contrary to what was supposedly predestined for me. 

Sometimes people have an image of what that is and that would change over time, but also in terms of very aggressive and certain things personality-wise that it is not one-size-fits-all like that. The more genuine you are to yourself, the more you can relate to jurors and the judge, and do a presentation that’s authentic to you.

What’s interesting is the journalism aspect. I hadn’t realized that before but Kalpana Srinivasan is the Managing Partner of Susman Godfrey and she told me the same thing. She started out in journalism and did work in journalism, and then came to the law. We got a managing partner commonality and a litigator commonality. That’s funny. 

That’s good to know. I know of her too. We’ve met a few times. 

She’s amazing. Your father was like, "Let's try the law." Lawyers or doctors, a lot of cultural people feel comfortable with that. It's something that they would like you to at least think about pursuing. It turned out that was a good thing because you enjoy your practice now. Also, your point about finding a place where you can grow and you can be watered to grow to your utmost potential is important. It can be a number of different settings. It could be this particular size firm but it comes down to the people and the people who see that potential in you. How do you think that has shown up for you in terms of mentoring and sponsorship? Whether you have any anecdotes about that or you have a sense of what it looks like to be mentored and then to mentor others. 

I want to go back a little bit on the comment about me finding an environment where I thrive in. I ended up thriving in a large law firm. One of the benefits of being in big law firms is that there are a lot of resources. We have women’s initiative type programs, diversity inclusion programs, a little bit more accountability, you get a formal mentor and all of that. I benefited from the diversity and women’s programs at a large law firm. 

With that said, a lot of people don’t want to work at big law firms or they are working at other firms. The ultimate point is that wherever you’re at, small, big or medium, it has to be a place that supports you. You have a trajectory there and you can see yourself being promoted, and the people care about your professional development. 

That’s what I found at my firm in Duane Morris. I’ve been here for many years. There were great people that saw something in me and pulled me to the side. They sometimes would tell me things that maybe I wouldn’t know unless I was a partner and took me to lunch. That made a big difference in my career. Even when I was more senior and was going to be a partner, I remember one mentor sharing origination credit with me for a particular client. It’s not gifting it to me but saying, “You develop this client with me over a number of years. They like you. It’s fair and right that we shared this client together.”

That’s a big thing for a partner to do because I know that partners are stressed and trying to bring as much business under their name. To have someone to say, “I want to look out for the next generation and share because that’s the right thing to do,” is a big thing. The other places that I've found mentors are not necessarily just in my firm because I did find that. I found a plethora of mentors outside of the law firm. Sometimes it’s even better to have those kinds of mentors because you could be a little bit more open with talking to someone that’s not your law firm and not in the bubble that they are in. They can give you an objective perspective. 

I got involved with local bar associations and found a lot of people that we had an affinity with because we had things in common. For example, I joined Asian American Bar Associations in my area. I became the president of a local bar association in Los Angeles called The Southern California Chinese Lawyers Association. It has a very long history as one of the older Asian American bars. Because of the sense of community and all of the great benefits that I received from being involved in the local bars, I wanted to continue that. I ended up getting involved in national bar work. From that, I stepped into leadership in the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association. The acronym is NAPABA. 

I ended up becoming President of NAPABA. I did a lot of work there in pushing the agenda for women and minority rights, the advancement of women of color. After my presidency, I still wanted to continue that work because there are a lot of needs such as yourself, MC, where you’re trying to address a need for young women. We’re like in mind in that. There’s a lot of need for the development of women. I wish that things like this and the stories that we’re talking about now were told to us earlier in our careers.

After my NAPABA presidency, I wanted to continue the work. I got involved in the National Association of Women Lawyers, NAWL. You and I both serve on the board. I also do work for the ABA Commission on Women, serving as commissioner there. It’s what I’m passionate about and what you’re passionate about. It’s what brings us together and how you and I have crossed paths multiple times. I do it not only because it’s important, but we were all there and we know that we have to be in this together. That mentorship, sponsorship and support of a fellow woman are critical to success in this profession. 

You can't make all the demands simultaneously, so you do have to look at the long game.

That’s an important point because at all levels, all parts and all times of your career, that’s helpful. Being intentional about that and being tangible about that support for people and other women of color is important. It’s important work that you’re doing through the bar associations. You’re also personally intentional about that in terms of helping people at all levels succeed within the profession. Thank you for giving back in that way. 

I’ve seen that many times. I want to underscore the positions that you hold and have held on the ABA Commission on Women. That’s a very influential commission and has various stories in its work. Also, to lead NAPABA is an honor, but also an important platform for you to have those discussions. That’s good. Did Helen Kim come before you in leading NAPABA? 

Yes, she was.

That’s amazing. From that work, you’ve also gained a lot of leadership skills in different ways. Creating a community and building a community outside the law firm is so important, especially for newer lawyers. They’re like, “I’m supposed to fill my hours and focus on this and stay in my office.” You need to get out within the firm, but also out in the professional world. It does you a world of good to get perspective and to meet others, friends, colleagues, and all of that. Do you have any suggestions for people who might want to get involved in bar association and eventually, bar association leadership? Any advice on how to do that? 

I tell associates very early in their careers that number one is you want to be an excellent lawyer. You want to have the fundamental skills, research analysis, writing and all that. That should be the baseline. After that, it can’t just be about hours because then you plateau and then you’re a billing machine. You and I are familiar with that setting where lots of people want to advance to becoming a partner. That’s not going to happen with purely hours. It has to be leadership skills where you’re a fellow partner. You understand how a law firm works, and how you can generate business for the firm whether you bring in clients or sustain existing clients.

I found all of those soft skills through getting involved in bar associations. It doesn’t have to be bar associations. A lot of my colleagues are involved in industry groups where they are the only lawyers, but they are surrounded by whatever is that they are interested in, whether that’s accountants, engineers, real estate professionals or something like that. They then get then involved. It doesn’t have to be where you get involved in the organization and just be a wallflower.

It’s raising your hand, taking on some of the discrete projects and saying, “I’m around. I would love to get more involved. Can I volunteer for this?” A lot of the bar associations want help. They love volunteers and people to write articles or to take on planning a specific program. While you may get involved at the beginning and not become an officer of the board, you have to start somewhere. I certainly did. I volunteered at many events in bar associations. People got to know my name and then I applied to be on the board, this and that. It grows from there. 

Getting out there, doing it and raising your hand to volunteer to do different things, whether it’s writing articles or roll-up your sleeves to plan different events, are the ways to meet people and find a path within the organization. I always tell newer attorneys that it takes many years for you to be known outside your space. You don’t want it to be like suddenly, you show up and you expect everybody to know you. It’s many years of that so you need to start early in doing that in small ways, and then devote more time as you can in your career.

To your point, which is a good point, you got to find something that you enjoy and that you want to do, not just because you’re doing it to meet people or to get out there. That might look like something different. Maybe it’s not a bar association. Maybe it’s an industry group, a community center, a nonprofit, an art board or some other community service aspect where you can meet people and gain some leadership skills outside the firm or the practice environment. 

Where I’m at now where I have a robust resume of lots of different bar leadership roles, I’m now looking at all that and saying, “What are my priorities now? Where can I make the most impact?” Time is so precious. I’m sure you have this issue too, but we can be putting our efforts and our time into a lot of different projects because everyone will take their time. There are a lot of different and great organizations. I’m at the stage where I can be very picky in what I want to do and what makes sense in my life. 

There was this great opportunity to be involved in another bar organization group. I’m sure that it’s right in my sweet spot that I can do a lot of work and make an impact. I had to think a lot about myself as a woman and as a mother, there are a lot of things that are demanding my attention, and one of them is my children. I had to think about I’ve done a lot for the community, but I need to be a great mom because my kids need me right now. 

It’s okay to have different things in life because it’s a long game. You don’t have to do it all at the same time. Maybe right now, I might not do that bar association opportunity because I need to focus on the kids for the next few years, but I could go back because that bar world will always be there. What we’ve learned is you can’t do all the different demands at the same time. You have to look at the long game. 

Prioritize culture beyond money.

You can’t do everything that comes across your life all at the same time. Part of that is being intentional about where you devote your energy and your time, both personally and professionally, because it’s all part of your life, your humanity, and not just the lawyer. That’s an important observation, but another observation from that is you’re able to make those choices because you have devoted so much time and been involved in things. You’ve reached the point where you can make those choices. That’s harder when you’re at the beginning of being involved earlier in your career like, “It’s an opportunity. I have to take it. I should do that. I should do all of these opportunities.” It’s harder to step back and say, “Maybe not this year,” because of different things. 

When you are an associate versus a partner, sometimes in the associate role, you are subject to whatever is the partner assignment, and you don't have a lot of control over that. You are not leading how things go. 

That’s one of the things that’s important too. We generally have more autonomy in practising law. There are certain things that even within a large firm, we have autonomy, but if we have our own clients in particular or if we contribute to the bottom line of the firm, there’s some independence that comes from that. It’s important to think about that and be intentional about that in your career as well. 

Some of the ways you can develop clients are through industry work or bar work, but it isn’t the only reason you should be doing these things. You should do them because you want to do them. You have an independent interest in it. There’s a nice benefit that you’re meeting a lot of other people who either refer work to you or the clients themselves. They hire you for things because they see your leadership skills in that setting. Even though they haven't seen you in trial or litigation, they have a good sense of your judgment and how you lead in that setting, so they have trust in you. 

That’s the keyword, trust. When a client hires you, they trust you that you’re not going to mess things up and make them look bad in their company. Eventually learning how to generate business is about relationship building. They are not necessarily asking me to send in my writing samples so that they can review my work product. It’s beyond that. It’s the trust in your judgment. 

They are hiring you for that, as well as your work product, especially when you’re at the point of leading teams. Clients are interested in knowing that you have good judgment and that you have led teams before, even if in somewhat different settings. The other thing I've noticed, at least from community boards where there aren't other lawyers or there maybe 1 or 2 other lawyers on the board, is that the particular thing that we add to a decision-making setting comes into high relief.

We look at things differently. We are trained to analyze and break down problems and address them in discreet ways. Sometimes we can get to the heart of how to analyze something pretty quickly. You see the value of legal training, the law degree, and the law practice in that regard. It also helps you appreciate, “I do bring these particular skills or problem-solving aspects to my client’s problems.” It helps you recognize what you contribute. 

At the end of the day, I always say that I’m a problem-solver. That’s what we love to do all day. The analysis part of it is so important in whatever area of law that is. It is the backbone of how we’re judged whether we’re good or bad lawyers. That is truly one of the important skills that lawyers have relative to non-lawyers. Not that other people are not as analytical, but we practice this on a daily basis. We do bring that to board or leadership roles. 

One thing I wanted to add before I forget is when you are involved in whatever it is that you decide to get involved in, it’s so important that you have to have that passion behind the mission of the organization. Otherwise, if you’re involved in something because you wanted that title, it’s going to fizzle out quickly. The demands of work and all that are so overwhelming, and when you’re in this organization, you’re saying, “Why am I doing this? Why am I giving all these non-billable hours out of taking away from my personal life?” It doesn’t mean anything to you. It’s not worth it.

It is important to find some passion, whatever that is, and then go with that to drive where you spend your time in. We’re so stressed in our careers already as lawyers. We need to find happiness where we can get it. It is so important to cater and tend to our mental health and make sure that we’re doing things that support our happiness and our personal satisfaction as practitioners. 

That’s an important message to deliver both in terms of doing things that provide meaning and make you happy. Don’t just do it because you think you should or you think you have to and looking at those activities as the whole of your life. It’s about choices. You only have so much time and you need to devote yourself to different things, and then how you make those choices to be passionate about something and to have your own reason for doing it. As you said, there are a lot of demands on your time. You want to make sure you’re doing something that you want to be doing. 

You said you have been in Duane Morris for a long time and you found a good setting in a big law firm, but a lot of people would think that there are more challenges to being in a big law firm than being in a smaller setting or some other practice. What do you think about this particular firm or the big law firm environment that works for you? 

I love where I work. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have stayed for so long as I did. I know I have opportunities to go elsewhere. What keeps me here is the culture. Wherever you go, culture has to be somewhere at the top of your list in what you’re looking for. It’s beyond money because even though you can move for more money, how you’re treated is so important because it’s what sustains everyday interactions and how work is done, and the quality of work product that’s produced. I’m not going to say it’s been hunky-dory, every place has areas of improvement. Even in areas of improvement, I feel like I have a voice that I can provide critical feedback, and the firm listens and does something about it. 

Make an effort to go to sleep at a certain time because it’s supercritical. 

In all places, there’s no one firm or one company that’s the best place to work at. You have to look at your circumstances and say, “Where I’m at, do they value me when I say something? Are they going to respect what I say?” If they don’t then maybe you do have to think about, “Is there somewhere else better for yourself?”

Thankfully, I’m here at my place because I feel like I’m lined up to the very top of the firm, the chairman of our firm. Respect is so important because me being a woman attorney and a minority, I feel like there have been a lot of headwinds versus tailwinds in this industry, which is what I was touching on earlier. Sometimes you don’t get the benefit of the doubt when you walk in the room because you’re the only woman, a handful of women, or the only minority in the room, and it’s very hard. I’m not going to say that it’s easy in this profession as a woman attorney or minority attorney. If firms say, “We might have had blind spots but we want to be better.” That’s very important to me. 

The point you made about having an impact or at least being able to have a dialogue and feel that you’ll be heard, you can have some impact on the organization be it large. In so doing, there is respect both for your skills as a lawyer, and also your input as a person and a member of the firm. At a certain point, it can be very challenging to stay somewhere where you don't feel that you have some input or some say in the overall movement of the firm. You don’t feel that value if you don’t have that. 

That’s an important point and the culture point, as well as the culture fit. Sometimes people look at practice settings only. It’s not just the practice setting but the overall culture of the firm and the individuals both on your team and who are in the management team, whether you feel like they have your back or not is important.

It’s also good for you to have outward-facing leadership roles both in the bar associations and within the firm. That's an important position so that people can see that and look forward to being in that role someday as well. How long have you been Managing Partner of the LA office? Thinking about fitting everything together, how do you fit the firm management things plus bar leadership, and then your family life and your practice? Those are a lot of puzzles to fit together. Do you have any tips on how you manage all of that?

To answer the first part of the question, I’ve been doing my role for several years and the reason I know that is because my son is about 7 to 8 years old. That's how I keep track. How I got into my management role was when I was pregnant with my son. I was in the middle of a trial, and the chairman of my firm called me up on one evening of the trial. He said, "We need to talk." I said, "I'm not going to be available until 9:00," so he called me at 9:00. I’m like, “What can be so important right now?” He had asked me and talked to me about, “We want to make you the managing partner.”

I didn’t see that coming. I was in a state of surprise and shock. I said, “I got to tell you something. I don’t know if you know this but I’m pregnant right now. I want to be forthright about the circumstances that I’m in.” He said, “We view that as a short-term thing but this is a long-term thing for us.” They conveyed that it was okay with them, “You’re going to be a leader of the firm. If you need to do what you need to do, we support you.” That went a long way for me. 

I said, "Okay because I'm going to be taking my full maternity leave,” which I did. It was important to me to take my full maternity leave and have that break. I wanted to make sure the firm accommodated that for me so that the younger lawyers can see that I took that and they could take a maternity leave too. A lot of my associates are pregnant right now and they tell me that. I said, “Don’t worry about it. Take the time you need and we will accommodate. We can handle it. I’m glad for the notice so that I can plan in advance.” 

I was there and the firm supported me, so I need to be there for others and support them because they want to have a family too and be a successful attorney. I’m juggling and I’m not saying my world is any different from your world or anyone else. People have elders that they need to take care of. For me, I have to take care of young ones. I’ve got family obligations, relatives, this and that, billable hours, management and bar leadership. There could be times when it's so overwhelming. I have to take steps back and I constantly have to do a self-assessment check. 

It goes back to what I said. I could have committed myself to another bar leadership role that would have been great for me and the organization but I said, “I have to check myself. For the next year or so, I need to focus on some family stuff right now.” I need to go. I need to take care of certain things. It is important to have good self-awareness constantly about what you can and can’t handle and to have the ability to say no and know your limits. For the longest time, I could go on with very little sleep but it's not great for the long term. I've read books. Sleep is supercritical. 

I have to like make an effort to go to sleep at a certain time because if I turn on that laptop, I can do emails all night. It could take me to 3:00 AM or 4:00 AM. I have to draw the line and say, “I got to be on tomorrow. I’ve got all these important meetings that I need to make sure that I’m present and I’m not falling asleep.” It’s a work in progress but I’m trying. 

It’s always a work in progress and trying to figure that out. Checking in with yourself and saying, “Where am I at? What are my or my family’s priorities?” at any point in time is important. I also thought about your observation of firm culture and how that works. The firm trusted you and said, "Yes, we're going to trust you with this leadership role. Your pregnancy and your taking leave are happening now, but we have a longer-term vision with regard to you and the firm." You pay that forward to other people in your office, not only on behalf of yourself but on behalf of the firm to perpetuate that culture. That’s a good observation and anecdote. People talk about culture but that’s how that works. 

Paying it forward is such an important concept. I get more back than what I paid for. I feel like when I mentor others, I get so much appreciation from the younger lawyers or mentees. They’re teaching me and it’s so fulfilling to hear about other people’s accomplishments to say, “Thank you so much. You were pivotal in helping me make this decision or giving me this great advice.” I’m eating it up. “You’re making me so content that I made a difference in your life.” Even though I’m paying it forward, they’re paying me in tenfold. That’s what I’m saying. 

That’s also one of the not-so-hidden benefits of mentoring when you turn around. All you can do to pay people back who have done well for you is to pay it forward, mentor others down the line, and do the same kind and generous things that others did for you. There’s a great return in that as you said. It’s very warming to the heart and you’re like, “I’m glad I did make a difference.” It’s nice to know that. You don’t always know. You hope you are but it’s nice when people tell you that you did.

Part of this show is thinking about the next generation and providing some input, mentoring, worst stories, and life stories for people to relate to, and help them move through challenges. There are always challenges. It’s not a straight line to success. Thanks for sharing your journeys. I appreciate it. Before we close, I wanted to do a few lightning-round questions. Which talent would you most like to have, but you don’t? 

I love to sing privately but not publicly. I would love that. 

Who are your favorite writers? 

First off, I love books. I’m constantly reading books. I don’t know if I have a favorite because there are too many. My love of reading started in a more professional career. I liked Malcolm Gladwell’s books. He wrote a number of different books. 

The Tipping Point was the first one I remember. 

The Tipping Point, Outliers, and every single book I loved it. We read so much in our career as lawyers. Aside from reading fiction and all that when I was growing up, I stopped reading for a long time because of law school and all the reading from work. I started going back to nonfiction and Malcolm Gladwell’s books reignited my love of reading. After that, I’m always on a book now, so I will name him for now. 

The Tipping Point was a big one for me in terms of that whole genre, and Outliers is an interesting one too. His books make you think about things and the connections between things, and look at things a little bit differently. It's nice. Who is your hero in real life? 

I would say, my dad. He's been so influential in my life. I was talking about him and how he made my decision in my career. Even to this day, I tell my dad so many things. Even on compensation, I’ll be like, “Dad, should I ask for a raise?” Those kinds of things. I feel like he’s been my personal coach my entire life. 

That’s such a great thing. I think about that with my mom in many ways. I’m like, “She’s like an executive coach.” Also, she has known me for a long time, so this is very helpful. For what in life do you feel most grateful? 

My kids. They are what grounds me. It’s the foundation of everything I do. They were like two little ninjas always getting into me and then destroying things. My kids are one of the things that I got out of my marriage. I am no longer married. I am divorced. I never regret that relationship even though it didn't work out because I got these two blessings in my life that have changed my perspective, which is my kids. 

Be pivotal in helping others make great decisions. 

That’s a good perspective on that overall and that’s so good to know. Given your choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? 

I would say Barack Obama because I finished reading his book. He’s super cool and super smart. He would be someone I’d like to meet. He seems chill but also intelligent and has seen so many things. He’s a lawyer and I feel like I related to everything he was saying in his book. Michelle Obama is also super awesome. 

Last question, what is your motto if you have one? 

In life be resilient and be flexible, but don’t ever let anyone or anything break you. There have been a lot of challenges in my personal and professional life. It has been so important to me to be resilient, to overcome them, to be flexible in situations that required that, and to never ever let it break my will and my spirit. 

That’s good advice all around. It’s partly your choice about whether something breaks you. It’s to have that mindset that it’s not going to. Thank you so much for taking time out of your very busy schedule, family life, and all of that to share your insights and your journey on this show and with me. It’s wonderful.

Thank you, MC. I appreciate the time and the opportunity.