ABA leader and Chief Deputy Clerk Western District of Tennessee

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In this episode, host MC Sungaila chats with Chief Deputy Clerk Dawn Du Verney of the Western District of Tennessee to uncover how her current role combines her degree in law and her skills on the administrative side, gained from various executive leadership and legal positions within corporate, academic, nonprofit, and government sectors. She touches on the importance of developing soft skills and having the right team of mentors to guide you in your career. She also talks about her experience as a woman working in the legal field and how we can further support each other in the space.

This episode is powered by LexMachina

Relevant episode links:

Western District of Tennessee, UsCourts.gov, How Women Rise, African-American Federal Executive Association, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There, Blink, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Alice Walker, Oprah

About Dawn Du Verney:

Dawn Du Verney became the Chief Deputy Clerk for the Western District of Tennessee in late 2021. Prior to this appointment, Dawn served as the Director of Hearings Operations for the U.S. Social Security Administration (SSA) Office of Hearings Operations in Tupelo, Mississippi where she oversaw the administration of 3000+ disability appeals adjudicated by a team of seven Administrative Law Judges. For SSA, she also served as a Supervisory Attorney Advisor in the Charleston, WV Hearing Office, a location with one of the highest pending caseloads in Region III.

Dawn has held a diverse range of executive leadership and legal positions within corporate, academic, nonprofit, and government sectors, including a gubernatorial-appointment as Executive Director of the New Jersey Martin Luther King, Jr. Commission, EEO and Ethics Officer for the New Jersey Department of State, Special Counsel to the New Jersey Secretary of State, Associate General Counsel, Assistant Deputy Public Defender, and Adjunct Professor at Temple University School of Law and Peirce College.

Dawn has served in many top leadership roles with the American Bar Association (ABA) Section of Litigation, including Managing Director, Division Director, Communication co-chair for Strategic Planning, and currently, co-chair for the Task Force on Racial and Economic Justice. She was an ABA Presidential appointee to the Standing Committee on Pro Bono and Public Service and the Standing Committee on Legal Assistance to Military Personnel (LAMP) for several years. She has supported the legal profession at the state level as New Jersey Supreme Court appointee to the Board of Bar Examiners as a bar exam grader for 12 years and as a member of the Fee Arbitration Panel, Civil Practice Committee, and Model Jury Charge Committee. She has a passion for public service and pro bono and looks forward to collaborating with the Memphis Bar on outreach programs.

Dawn earned a BS from American University, a JD from Seton Hall University, and a LL.M from Temple University.

I'm thrilled to have on the show, a colleague and friend of mine from our work in the American Bar Association, Dawn Du Verney, who is the Chief Deputy Clerk for the Western District of Tennessee. Welcome, Dawn.

Thank you. It’s great to be here.

I'm excited to have you because you have such a varied career and leadership positions that you've had. You are the first clerk that I've had from a trial court. Molly Dwyer from the Ninth Circuit has visited us. I'm curious to know about that position, also because I don't think that people think of that in the first instance in terms of what you can do with a law degree being a clerk of a busy district court or an appellate court. You have a unique history and you're also an amazing human being. I'm glad to have you here. I wanted to start from the beginning in terms of how you come to think that you wanted to do anything with a lot, to begin with, in terms of going to law school or becoming a lawyer.

I'm from Trinidad in the West Indies. I came here at five. My mother, I went back to visit her. I was with her one summer and it happened to be when Janelle Commissiong, who is the Miss Universe from Trinidad won. She said to me, “What is it that you want to do when you grow up? You should be a lawyer because you like to talk a lot and always are thinking things through.” That was the first time it was planted in my mind about being a lawyer. As I grew, went through high school and things like that, I wanted to be connected to a broader way of helping people. That's how it came about for me.

There are some threads that I've heard from folks on the show, which is first but others see things in you and suggest things to you that you might not see in yourself in terms of your family and friend. Also, the law is a way of solving problems for individuals but also larger issues in society. There's something very appealing and meaningful about that 

Being from a foreign country, I wanted to solve the world's problems. I wanted to travel the world, help people any way I could and be a respectable professional that my mother would be happy. As I got into it, starting as a paralegal and doing different things, I do not enjoy the work itself and the way of thinking about the training.

That's true in terms of versatility from it. You learn a way of thinking critically and analytically about problems. That translates to a lot of different settings and types of practice of law. I'm curious how you made the different decisions that you did to move from a lot of different settings in terms of your use of your law degree. Sometimes people have said if they have an eclectic background in the law, either they followed someone who they wanted to work with a particular leader because they thought they could learn from that particular leader in that position or it’s the next development of their skillset.

I tease all the time and tell folks that I'm the Forrest Gump of law because I'm in the right place at the right time. I say yes more than I say no. Volunteer opportunities led me to do certain things. For instance, I was in law school studying. I had to come home because we had to take pictures with our infant son. I got there and someone knocked on the door. They were from Governor Whitman's administration. I grew up in New Jersey. He said, “We're looking to diversify boards and commissions. Are you interested? We talk about an opportunity coming to you.” I was like, “Sure.” I signed my name.

Maybe a year and a half later, I get a call, “Are you interested in the Martin Luther King, JR State Commission to be a commissioner?” I was like, “Sure.” By this time, I was an in-house counsel for an environmental corporation. I remember my general counsel going, “What does that have to do with what we do?” I was like, “I don't know but the state needs me.” It’s when the public service began. Fast forward two years later, the headquarters was moving from New Jersey to Florida. I had a young child. I’m married. My husband is settled and we're not moving to Florida.

I reached out to the secretary of state under whose department, the Martin Luther King Commission failed and she said to me, “If something comes up and you hear of anything, please let me know.” Three months later, I'm about to board a cruise. She calls me and says, “I'd like to name you as the Director of the Martin Luther King JR Commission,” which is a gubernatorial appointment.

I was 32 years old. She nominated me. I went from me being a commissioner to being the King commissioner. That was saying yes to something that seemed to knock us and that someone else had told me didn't make sense. That started to build my administrative skills. I had the law and then started building the administrative side. That's one of the ways that I got to where I am because I always accept things like that.

Be careful stepping outside of law because law is a jealous mistress. Once you step out, it’s going to be extremely hard to get back.

That can be sometimes a difficult bridge because people know that you have the legal training in the way of thinking but we're not taught business management skills or things like that in a legal setting. You need that for the administrative roles that you're talking about. Saying yes led you to that opportunity to develop those skills.

From that, I've served on several boards of directors, legal services and Urban League. When the unfortunate situation of the Urban League’s President and CEO passed after 30 years suddenly, I got a call from the Vice President after I had stopped serving on the board. They called me to say if I'd be willing to come back and be their Chief Executive Officer. I was in private practice at the time so I was doing both. How I did do it? I don't know. I had a very good secretary and well-trained. She would handle certain things and I would be in the office. I was doing it part-time but I was giving both full-time.

That was building the administrative while I still had my hand in the law because after investing in law school, you certainly want to use the law degree. In the beginning, you think the only way to use it is to practice law but as things have progressed, I started to find out that I can use the skill, which is so important. You can never use it. You're always going to review a contract and resolve some dispute. It might not be a formal dispute but something is going on like difficult conversations and people. You're going to have to deal with that.

There's always some employment issue. Someone else is going to tell you how to handle it but if you have a law degree and you could at least pick up a case or read something, you may not know it and be the expert but you'll know enough to be able to speak intelligently and assess whether the information and the guidance that you're getting is appropriate. That was quality advice and it made sense in your situation.

They see lawyers as leaders but I wouldn't say necessarily in executive positions. That's what is unique. You took opportunities but people also saw that in you, that you would be able to step up to those opportunities, even if you may not have been sure at the time.

I clerked for a judge right out of law school at the state level. I remember her telling me when I took the Martin Luther King Commission, “Be careful stepping outside of the law because the law is a jealous mistress. Once you step out, it's going to be extremely hard to get back.” There were times when I was like, “She was right.” I realized that there will be a time and where I am, I've had the opportunity to meld.

Sometimes when you see all of these pieces together in the end, you're like, “Here's the opportunity to meld all of them. It makes complete sense that this would be the role I would have given the strengths that I've garnered from this position, that position and all of these other things. I'm putting them together.” It does not seem like this background in executive leadership and administrative aspects together with your legal knowledge is perfect for the position.

The other thing that I've taken a real focus on over time is to ensure that I had appropriate training. Unfortunately, as lawyers or any group that defines themselves by saying everybody else is non like lawyers and non-lawyers, doctors also say doctors and non-doctors. The one thing that I did was I got particularly training because I understood some things that Dr. Larry Richard talks about, which is the lawyer personality. We're not necessarily bent toward the administrative side.

We tend to think we don't need any training.

You do. When he talks about lawyers being low in a relationship, that was one of the things that I want to hit it ensured that I developed. If I'm speaking to someone who's looking for their path, I'm like, “Continue with your legal knowledge. Stay fresh on that but develop the softer skills because no matter where you go, that's necessary. It will serve you well.”

 That's as if not more transferable than legal thinking and analysis.

They save it. What most rainmakers have is the relationship piece and that makes sense. They have developed that strong piece. Whether you're staying in the law or looking at something else, that's worth developing because you're dealing with people. Even though it's your brain but the money comes from people, you don't have a client. Those kinds of things have happened.

Here’s a little story that the readers might find interesting about that melding of things. Years ago, my husband said to me that he ran across a woman who was in the mid to late 60s. I don't know how they got to talking about me. He comes on and says, “This lady says to tell you every single thing you've ever done, keep waiting and trusting because it will all come together. There's going to be the perfect job, opportunity and business. She can't tell you which of those it will be but the perfect thing will come. You keep moving one foot in front of the other and watch it come together.”

I feel that I'm at the bliss point. I'm enjoying what I do. For those who may not know what a Chief Deputy Clerk does, they administer what's happening in the court, ensure that the cases are processed and the government is efficient as people would expect. The one thing that was a surprise for me is that there is a lot of finance and budgeting required.

I think of it being the COO of the court but there's also a CFO part.

Even though I have the director of finance, IT and case administration report to me, with my clerk, HR reports to her in the courtroom deputies but every other function reports to me. Being someone who did not grow up through the courts, going through the intranet alone is daunting. The soft skills are what are the things that are helping me to get through while I'm learning because I'm not afraid to ask or say I don't know.

That’s something that I want to encourage your readers, particularly the young ones who were trying to figure out what they want to do. Ask if you don't know. There's no shame in that. The person who fakes it, there's shame in that because you're always waiting to see when the other shoe's going to drop. When somebody is going to find out, you don't know what you're doing. People are always willing to share if you ask.

How did you decide that you thought that a clerk position would be a good fit for you?

It was recommended to me. I was the Director of Hearing Operations for the Social Security Administration for several years. I'm active like how I know you through the section of litigation with the ABA, I was having lunch and several judges knew that I wanted to do something else that felt would be more in line with my passion. I had a little bit more freedom for me to sink my teeth. Two said to me, “Have you ever thought about the Federal Courts and the clerk roles?”

I'm like, “No, I didn't. I hadn't any USA jobs.” I never thought of UsCourts.gov. I started to search. I applied for several. In one year, I interviewed eight all over the country, clerks and chief deputy clerks. Every time I would be told that I did well and this was what I would hear, “We went with someone on the inside.” I share that with the judges and they would click back, “Keep pushing and trying. I know that's hard. You're breaking into a culture.”

You’re dealing with people. Your money comes from people.

It's good to have cheerleaders because I could imagine the next time that happened, you're like, “Is this ever going to happen? It's like I have to be inside to get inside that.”

They're telling you, “You are so great. I'm sure you can do this job. We would love to have you but we have to give the edge to someone who's already on the inside,” until the day comes. In November of 2021, I got the call that the clerk wanted to hire me. It was initially a no. I interviewed. I knew I did well. It was the best interview I've ever had in my life and I did not get it. I interviewed in September 2021 and a month later, I got the call at 6:30 PM from the clerk telling me, “Are you still interested in the position?” I'm like, “Somebody's pranking me.”

We're very close. She said, “It was neck and neck. The only reason this person beat you was the same thing on her before, it was inside and transferring in.” They changed their mind and did not want to relocate. I wanted to share this with your readers. I don't want to be preachy but I'm a woman of faith and this is who I am. What God has for you is for you. No one's going to block that. When your time has come, it will be there. Keep moving forward. One foot in front of the other. That's all you got to do.

When I told my husband, we were stunned for three days. “Do you believe that call came? Could you believe she called?” It has been a dream working with her. We finish each other's sentences. It's one of those where we laugh a lot. We get a lot done. I can be as creative as I want to be. It’s all of those things that I love to do and I've done for the nonprofit when I needed to pull it out of a hole, It’s something creative for a fundraiser that I might've done or some things that I did for a community-based organization, with the ABA or some other volunteer capacity. I have redesigned them over with the court and she loves it. The staff is responding. I'm helping to build a culture with all of those gifts and experiences from the past. I couldn't have calculated that.

A lot of people think, “People who give back a lot in various ways like community board service, bars association or ABA is on top of whatever else you're doing. You don't know what's the value in that,” but you got a whole lot of skills from that you're able to adapt to the senate.

In skills, you would not have got it otherwise from one job. It’s the diverse group of people that you meet across the board when you volunteer or the skills and the people. I have contact probably all around the country. I would have never met those judges who encouraged me if not with the ABA. They were in two different states.

When I went for one of the interviews, the first one for a Chief Deputy for the Bankruptcy Court in Louisiana, that's where that judge was. We went to dinner. Right after I finished the interview, I went down to her chambers and had a quick chat. You can't pay for that stuff. Don't be discouraged if the job or the opportunity hasn't come yet but you had to do other things and your success is coming in from another angle. Keep accepting the successes and gaining them from wherever they're coming because certainly, you can parlay those into other opportunities.  

You were following the trail in terms of opportunities in your career and job but also in the appointment, service and volunteer ways you were following that, even when it was difficult to do both, to have your law practice and serve in leadership positions that were not paying but very valuable. 

I was with ABA back in law school. As a practicing lawyer, it might have been around 2011 when someone who was a member of the section of litigation saw me volunteering. I was doing a fundraiser for the Association of Black Women Lawyers of New Jersey but she came to me and was like, “I'm so organized, this and that and everything.” She reaches back and says, “I remember meeting you. Would you mind coming to the AECOM over to the ABA and assisting us with revamping a newsletter?” That's how I got started with the section on litigation.

It was in a pro bono public service, which was an easy transition for me because, at the time, I wasn't litigating per se. I was like, “I'll help you.” I did that and did it well. Two years later, those co-chairs recommended me to join leadership and there've been many opportunities with every opportunity. That's the other thing.

A volunteer opportunity does not mean that you slough it off and attitude the rest because you just don’t know. If you put your name on it, people remember. You're a star in the section of litigation. You know that when you do a good job, people remember that and they seek you for other opportunities. You just don't know how it's going to play out. Take each one of them seriously. Don't do too much so that you're able to do whatever you do well.

We talked about that while trying to manage our loads because we tend to say yes to a lot of things and it does lead to that within the litigation section, particularly once people trust you and there are more opportunities. I served on 2 practitioner reading committees for 2 different Supreme Court nominees. That is such a unique, amazing opportunity that the ABA has, which you wouldn't have in any other setting. 

Giving your talent to an organization is also another avenue that people should think about.

Sometimes people think about there's monetary support for things if you're serving on a community board but there are also things that you can say, “I'm not your $1 million donor but I have skills to lend to the purpose and mission of the organization. Is that something that you would find useful? If so, I'm happy to provide them.” Usually, they say yes. If not, then find somewhere else that is a good fit. 

I've found that with school boards and all those kinds of things. Every board needs assistants on some level. There's a place for you. It's the same thing I always tell people about in the section on litigation, “There is room for you, just find the right people.”

That's funny it started with the newsletter. Newsletter to managing director is a pretty substantial move over time.

In everything, the opportunities are phenomenal.

Even within the managing director position, in particular, there are a lot of administrative aspects to it and leadership you were able to grow those skills in that setting too. 

For those who don't know what a managing director would be for the section of litigation, it's like a chief of staff.

Chief of staff to the head of the litigation section.

Whatever God has for you, no one’s going to block that. When your time has come, it will be there. Just keep moving forward, one foot in front of the other.

It’s for a year on board and a year of prep. It’s great training and an opportunity to do that. As long as you were volunteering and giving your good efforts to organizations that need it, it was a great way to develop your skillset. Be a systems thinker and be able to see where you can do and what you can do with it because there's an awful lot. I hate that whole phrase, “Think outside the box,” but I like to say, “Look at things with fresh soft eyes.” Soften your eyes so you're not wearingly focused on something. You'll see the opportunities unfold in the different ways that things can be seen because you're not staring it down. You're like, “What is in it? What's here?” You'll see the colors and the person. That's how I like to look at it.

Overall, you are open to opportunities that might come in different shapes and forms. That's a good lesson or admonition to people who are starting in terms of being open. Sometimes we do in law in particular, get very focused on a particular. “I want to do this. If there's anything on either side of that, I'm not going to pay attention to it.”

I started with environmental law and thought I was going to be an environmental lawyer. I got out of law school, a clerk for one year and then worked for an in-house counsel. That's a rare thing too. You get drawn in. It was an international environmental remediation company, a small law department and I was Associate General Counsel. This was a company that ended up moving to Florida that I didn't. I wasn't happy because that wasn't the fit for me. I realized that I was not intended to be in an office every day reading papers and understanding all of the contractual obligations that are necessary for petroleum remediation.

Part of me needed to be out communicating with people, touching things and being able to have a direct view of the output and outcome. That was one of the things. I thought environmental law was the way I was going to go. A professor in law school was like, “You'd be great. You've been great in my class. This is a great place for a young woman of color because there's room for you,” but it wasn't the right fit with trial and error and trying different things.

I was a public defender. I loved that. At first, I was a little scared but once I got past that, I felt like I was doing something worthwhile and giving people an ear. I needed quality representation of people who cared and then I knew I wanted to get to the Federal government. An opportunity rose with Social Security so I then had to leave a great job.

Writing that letter of resignation was a hard one because I enjoyed what I was doing but with the time that I had there, I gave what I had. It was time to try the next thing that came up. I'm passionate about a lot of things. I've heard some of your prior guests say things like that too. We all have in common. There are so many things that I like and I'm willing to try. I'm also willing to say, “That wasn't right for me.”

Life did not end when that happened. You're like, “I thought that would be great but it isn't what I thought it would be. That's fine. I know that now. What do I do with that information and other information about what I do like to do and how do I put that together?” It sounds like even when you're discussing the different roles, you're saying, “I like this part. I have this strength and skill.” Keep track of those in terms of what you find meaningful, where your strengths are and which things you need to develop. It’s all part of it.

Along those lines, I took assessments.

I pointed that out because a lot of people don't. That's a unique approach. A lot of lawyers don't necessarily take stock and assess in that way. I almost feel like that's one of your management and administrative strengths. You're like, “The way to deal with this is to go through. Check the skillsets and put these together.” In that process, you're like, “That whole process is one of my strengths too.”

I'm an introvert. Everyone was like, “No, you're not.” I said, “Yes, trust me but I have worked very hard.” Once I realized that, I started forcing myself to do things that force me out of my head so that I would come out and play with the rest of the world and not draw these conclusions that only I have had the privilege of thinking about. The assessments were a very important part of my development. I was in my twenties when I took the first one. Instead, I was low in humanism. I was like, “What? I love people. What does that mean?”

 It doesn't sound good. That doesn't sound like anything anybody would aspire to be. Even then I was thinking, “What can I do?” Getting out, being with people and taking on roles help. Later on, I took some more assessments and got another one. This is Myers & Briggs. It is my absolute favorite one. I guide so much of what I do by that. It had a different way of terming. It said that I'm a thinker, not a feeler. I look at the results. I'm anti.

I have that visionary view and I look at the results on how can we get it done. I figured that people will be okay. I was like, “That's what humanistic meant on the other one.” Knowing that, I deliberately work to ensure that I am seeing the people, building the side and doing that in addition to knowing that my natural bent is to go inside, move to the result and say, “They'll be okay because this is the right thing to do.” I take a lot of time and do a lot of effort. In this job, in several that I've had, I use that side a lot. I allow that side to emerge so that I can not only as I'm growing, grow other people and bring them alone. 

Here's a book I’d recommend that I love. How Women Rise by Sally Helgesen and Marshall Goldsmith. It is a good book. It has a lot of little vignettes and tells stories about some things that as women, we sometimes do wrong. We're trying to get to B but somehow or another, we go over into Z, don't know how we got there and don't realize why we are around. I highly recommend it. It's an easy read and has some good little stories. 

I didn't know about that book. Thank you.

It was recommended to me by my husband. I looked at it and I was like, “I like this.” I recommend it to a lot of people, even mentees, employees and so on. I'm starting a book club in the office. It's not just for women. It's for women and men who care to know how to help.

I have two questions. The first thing was, I was thinking, taking those kinds of assessment tests I've found are helpful especially when they're telling you about your strengths. If somebody were to ask you what your strengths were, you wouldn't name usually what the tests come up with because they seem so natural. I don't know if you have the same reaction to them but some in the StrengthsFinders test, I would never guess that we were the ones that came up. Those aren't special that everybody does, it's almost like it's inherent in you that you can't imagine that anybody else would do it differently. It's helpful because you're not able to get outside yourself enough to know like, “That's a unique thing that you have that others don’t.”

It's with the StrengthsFinders. I'm on the African-American Federal Executive Association fellowship program. We did StrengthsFinder. Our cohort is fourteen professionals from around the Federal government different entities. What was unique is he showed us a map of where we all stand. When you see it like that, it shows you how unique you are and what things you may have in common but we were across the gamut. It was good to see which ones you go to more often and how you can use those.

Normally, if I didn't have guidance, I would have looked at those and all the ones that were my low points and figure out how to develop those. For other people, it was quite different. I'm not sure if the person who trained you on it did the assessment. The philosophy was different. He said, “Figure out how to use your strengths for your benefit, not try to build your weaknesses but how to win, which strength you should put in place and what time.” I was like, “Thank you for that because I'm always looking to how do I improve and fix.” I would have done it the wrong way.

What I love about the StrengthsFinder too is that you're discerning what those are and then putting them into practice. It's the discerning that can be hard, to begin with, because that's special and I didn’t realize that. It’s helpful to have that. It’s not something that we do as lawyers very much. We need to have a lot of things in place to develop leadership aspects. It's good that you're interested in all of that and engaged in that to help yourself grow and get into all the various positions you've been in. The second thing I had was with the book that you mentioned. What are your views in terms of how women do rise and how they can help other women also rise?

This is from, unfortunately, some early-career situations that weren't as pleasant as I wish they had been with women but positive ones as things progressed. We need to be kind and support each other. You need to know who you are. Not see someone that's being competition because they're the other woman in the office or opportunity. Those things are important. Know yourself. Make sure that you are making room for other women. You're taking a minute to ask someone. If you see something, point it out and share it if you've developed that relationship, hopefully, with the mindset of giving feedback as a gift to help the person alone.

Look at things with fresh eyes. Soften your eyes so you’re not glaringly focused on something. Then, you’ll see the opportunities unfold and the different ways that things can be seen.

I'm reflecting on some of the situations that were not as great. Early in my career, I did not have supportive women role models and women to help me along in my career with those two judges who saw and more than that, there are several women. Every time I see you and we're anywhere, you're saying something positive, encouraging and uplifting because we all know it's hard for each of us. We have to undergird and help each other. There are some other wonderful women that I've met through the section of litigation who will never leave without having a positive word. We all need that. I would like everyone to remember that. Say something you can say.

I hadn't thought about that but that's true of the section of litigation. Women and leaders are all very supportive of each other, whether it's saying a kind, true positive word or also the judges who said, “This might be a good fit for you.” It’s the bread and crumbs along the way and tips for you to follow to find in this case, something that is an amazing fit for you.

It would be great for women to continue to do that and support each other in that way. That's how we're all going to do better. We're all in this together. That's one thing.

Some other guests on the show have various things, whether they've had great mentors in the past. The only way to pay that person and recognize the value of that is to pay it forward and mentor someone else. Give others the same mentoring opportunity to the next generation or whether it's in-house counsel who says, “If there's a question in terms of who gets billing credit in a particular case and a woman lawyer is my contact and she's the one I considered to be my outside counsel, I'm going to go to bat for her with the firm or management in terms of her getting that credit, not somebody else.” It takes a little bit of a measure of confidence in ourselves and a sense of where we are in our careers and that we have enough comfort with our power in that regard to be able to say, “This is the right thing to do and I'm going to help it happen.”

I got a mentor for the first time because of this fellowship that I'm in. It’s a wonderful opportunity. They pair you with the senior executive, someone from the SES if you're a Federal government employee. I've paired with a retired SES from Social Security. She is fantastic. I have gone through my entire career without a mentor. Maybe I would not be a free spirit in terms of Forrest Gumping with certain things, although it's worked out. I can't complain but if I had a mentor, that's the other thing. I encourage people to find some. You need a team or someone who maybe had X and Y experience. While you are learning from them, you're pouring into someone else who's coming on.

Some people call it the personal board of directors or things like that. There are other names for it.

You need your board of directors. I encourage that. It took me a while but I found her. She's phenomenal but when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. Maybe I didn't have one before but I need her in this role. 

You want to maximize that out. It's such a great fit for you and you want to do it to the absolute utmost. I was going to ask you about mentors and things like that because some people have them and some people don't. Some people have them for a short period. I think of people who appear at the right time to give you the next leap and opening that you need. Sometimes, law students are told, “Do you need a mentor or sponsor?” People are always like, “What is that? How do I get one? How does that work? Do I need one? Can I succeed if I don't have one that has my back in that way?” The answer is yes.

You can succeed but it does help to have a sounding board or a few. Let it be organic. There's no need to force it. If you haven't found the right one, you're in your 30s and you've been out of law school for a while, it will happen. Just keep looking. One person will come along and you'll know someone that can help you because they'll say something or you'll see that they have taken an interest in you. You're like, “I like this person. I enjoy speaking with them.”

When they tell me things, they're very straight until you have some things that you need to hear or they're saying encouraging or doing both, which is ideal that someone is strong and comfortable enough in their skin to guide you along and see something in you. When you see that, you might not say, “I need a mentor but can I call you every now and then? If I have any questions, is it okay if I reach out to you?” That's the startup.

I've had informal relationships like that along the way. I have a formal mentoring program and I'm thrilled. She is phenomenal. There are some other people that she's referred me to. I've had some issues with something at work that I wanted to deal with. She was like, “Try this. I just put up this book. You might want to do this with your team.” “I can be the best that I can be with maybe everything that I had brought me to this point.”

One of the authors of this book is the one who wrote What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. I may have gotten to this point but this is the time that I need because it's at the executive level. I need someone who's been there. Even if there’s a broad national perspective to give me some ideas because the things that I've done before might've not even been enough.

Did that coincide with coming to the position in the clerk's office or did you get into that program beforehand?

I got into the program before. See what kind of leadership programs are out there. Google. Someone from Social Security reached out to me in March of 2020. She said, “I was reading an article and you came to mind.” She sent it to me and it was mentioning the African-American Federal Executive Association. She said, “I could see you doing this because there are big things for you.”

My heart was so warmed that someone from Wisconsin is calling me. We didn't even speak regularly like, “I saw this and you came to mind. This might be good.” I applied and I got it. I'm still in the program. I got my eye towards, “How do I advance? I have any advancement that I had done throughout the Federal government.”

There’s no guidance or something like that. Just hard work. Something happened to me and then I take another opportunity but I want it to be a little more strategic. I applied for this. I got in. Without that, this came about. I'm still in that program. Talk about hands being full. We do a capstone project and there are books to read. I get a new job at a senior level but it's still great training.

That's why I asked if it wasn't hand-in-hand because it seems like it's perfect to level you up for the next opportunity. I like how intentional you are about things in terms of intangible but not narrow-minded about it because you're intentional in terms of, “I want to get out there, develop and get different leadership and opportunities.” Those may lead to something else. I also love that in this case, there's a certain amount of intervention from above in terms of this woman reading this and saying, “I thought of you and you should apply for this.” It's like, “What is the chance of that?”

In turn, what I have done is I have recommended it to several people. There are other aspects of it for women who are not at that level yet who can apply. There was another shorter one. It's for six months for the rising stars. There are people that I've identified and said, “Why don't you apply for this and do that?” We have to do that. That's the rent we pay.

One of the things from this show is that you may not have somebody who's able to make that particular nudge to you but I hope that each of you may resonate with a particular person and go, “That's a great idea. I'm going to do that and look into that for myself.” If there's not someone available to someone to do that, this is the collective availability for people to have.

This is an absolute service that you are providing. I'm so thankful for you and with all the other things that you have on your plate and all the other accolades that you've achieved to get engaged and involved in something like this to help others grow.

To whom much is given, much is to be expected; and to the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

– Luke 12:48

Thank you so much to you as well for being part of this and sharing your journey, how you've thought about it and how you've gone about your journey as well. That's instructive to people. Everybody thinks about things differently and has different approaches but all very formidable women who have come to a great point of success for themselves and something meaningful for each of you in terms of how you're contributing and giving back to the community. I want to end with a little lightning round of questions. My first question is which talent would you like to have but don't?

Singing.

Do anything else musical like playing an instrument or anything like that?

No. I’m a shower singer. I think I'm good.

I always think that art needs appreciators so I'm happy to fill that role. Who are your favorite writers? 

Ta-Nehisi Coates. I like his stuff because it makes me think. It's current. He's one of my favorites. I used to love Alice Walker all the time. Also, Malcolm Gladwell because of Blink. There's so much I learned from that. That's all about growth, which is what I live.

Who is your hero in real life?

My husband. He is an executive coach. All of this growth that I'll tell you about, much of it has come from him saying something like, “I attended this and this will be great for you.” I let him read this and he goes, “You really think so.” I'm like, “Yeah.” There's so much since my twenties that he has been helpful.

You want to be able to grow and grow with each other and from the partnership. That's awesome. You made a good choice there. This might tie in together then for what in life do you feel most grateful?

Sanity. There's a whole lot beyond that. We'll have to have whatever we want.

 Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? It could be alive or not. It could be more than one person if you want, a salon-style discussion at your dinner.

I want to sit with Oprah for a bit. She played an instrumental role in my life. I'm a survivor of some childhood trauma. When she told her story, it meant a lot to me. I would like to ask her a bunch of questions. I wouldn’t want to share her with other people.

Last question, what is your motto if you have one?

“To whom much is given, much is to be expected. To the one who had been entrusted, much more will be asked.”

You give much. I appreciate your time in joining the show and sharing all of your insights and wonderful personality. Thank you so much, Dawn.

Thank you for having me. Take care.