Litigator, trial attorney and professor with over 40 years experience in the legal field.

 00:43:53

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Hillary Grosberg has been a litigator and trial attorney for more than 40 years, almost 30 of them as a sole practitioner. Inspired by the show Perry Mason, she wanted to be a lawyer at a young age. She attended law school at night, while working as a paralegal, law clerk and legal secretary. Both fearless and practical, Hillary is a warrior for her clients. Hear her tips for zealously representing clients, and for starting and running your own law practice.

This episode is powered by Immediation, LexMachina, and LexisNexis

Relevant episode links:

Hillary Grosberg, San Fernando Valley Referral Service, Women Lawyers of Los Angeles

About A. Hillary Grosberg:

A. Hillary Grosberg is the lawyer other lawyers call when they need a powerful lawyer. With over 30 years’ experience, she knows the lay of the land and how the law works. She has been described as “fearless” . Litigating with both power and integrity set her apart from all the lawyers who simply fight for the sake of fighting.

A lawyer since 1981, Ms. Grosberg is admitted in all state and federal trial and appellate courts in California as well as the United States Supreme Court. She founded the Law Offices of A. Hillary Grosberg in 1993 to represent individuals and enterprises, large and small, in all types of business, contract, creditors’ rights and real property disputes as well as disputes over wills and trusts in Probate Court. Our transactional services include estate planning (wills and trusts), trust administration, incorporation and LLC formation.

She will learn your goals and suggest strategy. You will know whether your chances are good or not so good. Her knowledge will permit you to make educated decisions at all stages of your case. Sometimes it’s time to fight and sometimes the better solution is to negotiate a settlement. A. Hillary Grosberg is a litigator who will handle your case from inception through trial and appeal if appropriate.

As a small business owner herself, Ms. Grosberg understands that you have a business to run and a life to attend to and want your legal matter handled efficiently, yet aggressively.

Ms. Grosberg serves clients all over California and her Encino location provides convenient access to the courts in the entire greater Los Angeles area, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino and Ventura Counties.

She earned her undergraduate degree from UCLA and her law degree from the University of West Los Angeles, School of Law. She served as Editor-in-Chief of the law review and graduated in the top 10% of her class.  Ms. Grosberg was trained as a mediator in 2001 at the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution, Pepperdine University School of Law, Mediating the Litigated Case.

Ms. Grosberg currently teaches business law and ethics to graduate students at a private university. She has also taught trial preparation, contract, business law, real property, torts, evidence, bankruptcy, discovery, civil procedure, legal research, and appellate procedure courses in various community colleges and paralegal schools.

Ms. Grosberg sits on the boards of charitable organizations and is a member of the Los Angeles County Bar Association and San Fernando Valley Bar Association. Ms. Grosberg is also available to speak on legal issues.

I'm pleased to have on the show, Hillary Grosberg of her own law office in Los Angeles, California. Welcome, Hillary.

Thank you.

I wanted to, at some point during our discussion, get a little nitty-gritty or some advice for those who might want to have their own law firms either out of school or eventually. First, I want to start with how you came into law, to begin with. How did you decide to go to law school? What did you think you could accomplish by being a lawyer?

How did I decide is answered in two words, Perry Mason. I used to watch it with my grandmother. I found it fascinating that you got to be in charge. I had wanted to be a lawyer. One of my girlfriends told me she remembers when we were 6 or 7 that I already knew I wanted to be a lawyer. For about ten minutes, I wanted to be a history teacher. I would rather be a lawyer.

Around the same age was when I made that decision as well. I first briefly started out with wanting to be a poet. I had an image of me starving in a garret and I thought, "Maybe I should do something that I could support myself with." Poetry, generally, isn't that. I turned to be a lawyer.

My father always told my sister and me, "Whatever you do, make sure you're self-supporting. You may never get married. You may marry someone who can't support you, gets sick or passes away. You have to know that you can take care of yourself and your children."

That's how I was raised too. My parents both said, "Whichever way it goes, it's important that you're able to have independence." That's how I look at that. Were there any lawyers in your family? Have you met a lawyer other than Perry Mason on TV?

I hadn't ever met a lawyer. I've learned later that my father had wanted to go to law school but when the war was over, he needed to go to work. He ended up forming his own company and went into partnership. I also learned after I made my decision that my grandmother had been a legal secretary for a criminal defense attorney in Detroit in the '20s. I'll bet she had great stories that she could never tell. She was brilliant, as was my dad.

It is interesting when you look into the family tree, you find things and go, "There was something prior to me that related to this." I learned several years ago that one of my great-grandparents was a judge in Lithuania before my grandparents came over. That was cool to learn about because that's the only connection to the law that I could find within my family on either side.

I thought it was interesting so well after the fact.

You went to law school. Was there a particular law that you wanted to practice and liked to argue? You saw Perry Mason. I assume you were interested in doing trial work.

I knew I wanted to be a litigator. I had worked through law school as a legal secretary, paralegal, law clerk or whatever was paying the most at the moment. I worked in one firm where I was doing coverage work and I was bored out of my mind. I'm not interested in writing treatises. That's not who I am. You don't meet as many people. I'm very social. I like knowing what's going on and how other people think. I have always been a perfect personality for litigating. I never thought about doing anything else.

Have a shield to protect your clients, a spear for war, and a pen for treaties.

There are important nuggets in what you said, which is it's important to know yourself and your strengths aside from the law or what you might be interested in doing. It's thinking about your personality, your strengths and what you enjoy. You enjoy being with people and out in the world. That's a different position that you would want to take. I had that. I don't think that law students or new lawyers think of that necessarily in making a career decision. I want to highlight that because it's important to know yourself in a lot of different ways or even if you could do either, which way you thrive.

In my experience, I had this mid-career thought that maybe I should have been a poet, a fiction writer or something after all. Many lawyers are frustrated writers in that way. I started taking classes and focusing on fiction writing and even creative nonfiction. I noticed in myself that I didn't like myself as much because I was alone too much. As an appellate lawyer, I’m not seeing a lot of people but at least I see some.

The work is engaged with the world to persuade and create a difference in the world, whereas creative writing is much more insular to that degree. I decided, "I don't like myself. I could do this but I don't like who I would become if I were doing this full-time." I made a conscious decision not to do that but that was deep into my career when I was hopefully, a little bit more mature where I can see that. Early on, it's hard to have a clear eye about your skills, your personality, where you thrive and how you thrive. That's an important lesson. You are a very practical person.

I'm organized and fiercely independent. It's easy for me to think about where I want to go and then figure out around all the obstacles how to get there. I had never intended to be a sole practitioner. That never appealed to me. I was in a firm where essentially, the owner of the firm did something so unethical that I didn't notice because it was in one of my files. I left and that was a jump of faith.

That's being true to yourself and what you value. That's a lot of courage to do that.

I figured God would take care of it somehow, find me a job or help me find clients. I called one of my law school friends who had his own firm and said, "Did you know you wanted a partner?" He said, "No. I have too much debt. You don't want to be my partner." He had an empty office until his wife, with whom I had gone to high school, needed an office. She was also a lawyer. At first, I was using his office and doing some of his overflows. Somehow clients showed up.

That's in the category of one step forward at a time that we have talked about previously as well. It's moving ahead, looking forward and not looking back.

I have a very strong personality. People either like me or don't. There's not much of an in-between unless they can avoid me for long periods of time. I have a girlfriend who referred me. She's a probate and estate planning lawyer. She told me that she already warned her clients that I am not going to handle the way she does but since we're litigating and not just estate planning, you need to do what she tells you to do. She will explain it but she's not going to hold your hand. A) Yes, B) No. My client told me this, "I expected someone means. You're efficient."

You are. I love the logo for your law firm as well. It's a sword and shield. I was thinking, "Hillary is a warrior."

It's a shield, a spear and a pen. The shield is to protect my clients, the spear is for war and the pen is for treaties, also known as settlement agreements.

The overall impression is a warrior for your clients. That is 100% both your personality and that you take to heart your client's challenges and conflicts and you are their advocate. That's how you are. I haven't seen anyone else have something like that for their law firm but it personifies you.

The person who was helping me when I had to redo my website thought that was harsh. I said, "I am who I am. This is who I am. I'm proud of who I am."

It's accurate. For people who are looking for someone to be their advocate in that way, you've encapsulated it. People know what they're getting and who they're choosing to represent.

There are potential clients with whom I've spoken to that I can tell right away are not a good fit for me. They will become so frustrated with me. I give a deadline and I expect it to be met. It's pretty simple. People in real life get sidelined. For me, litigation is my life. For them, it's a thing in their way, "I don't want to talk about it now." I can ferret that out quickly in a first conversation. I will often tell people that this is not a good fit. Sometimes I have someone I can refer them to. If there are other reasons that I don't want that client, then I won't refer that client or give them the name of the San Fernando Valley Referral Service.

That can be challenging to do because we're always thinking, "We want to keep having a good stable of clients." In litigation, especially for individuals or people who aren't institutionally in litigation, you need to keep having people. It can be hard for us to make that decision as litigators and say, "I'm going to make a conscious choice about whether something's a good fit or say no to a potential client on that basis."

For me, when I worked in firms, you don't have that choice. At the firm that I left before I opened my own practice, there was a client who to say I intensely disliked would be about twelve steps up from how I felt. He followed me. He would always come. His cases were of a certain type. He knew about what they would cost. He always came with a check in hand that would generally cover everything. When I opened my own firm and he showed up on the doorstep one day, I thought, "I am never working with you under any circumstances."

I told him that I didn't want to be his lawyer. He looked at me like I was crazy and said, "I've come with the check. I'll double the fee. I know you're alone now and you must need money." I said, "It's not enough to work with someone that's not a good fit for me." He tried a couple more times, understood that I meant what I meant and referred other people to me. One of them said, "So-and-so referred me. He said if nothing else, you will be directly honest with me." I was shocked.

I'm shocked too.

That's quite the compliment.

You were firm but fair and honest. He said, "Those are good qualities that others might benefit from."

I had that happen in a five-day mediation. I was serving as the mediator. One of the lawyers had no idea of the law in the area. He was telling his client she was going to prevail and she wasn't ever. I took him aside and said, "You don't know what you're talking about. Either go find out or listen to what I'm telling you because I know this area of law. You're giving your client such bad advice and making her believe that she should get some money out of this. She will be lucky if she doesn't have to pay money." He said, "You don't know what you're talking about." I said, "I do." He, his son and some other people were in the same firm. This lawyer needed to be in San Francisco for a hearing.

That was the day I got everybody's signatures on the settlement agreement because he wasn't there to say no. His son called him and told him what was going on. He starts carrying on. I can hear him through the phone. I picked up the phone and said, "I've told you 100 times you don't know what you're talking about. This is an excellent settlement for your client because someone is willing to pay her. It's 9:00 on Friday night. We are now going to settle this case." The son was more willing to learn than his dad. Fast forward several years, not just the son but the dad started referring work to me. Their offices are close to mine. I went over to the office to thank him because I thought, "That's a big man."

That was nice and gracious of you to go over and do that in person. Let's talk about that. In having your own law firm, it sounds like you get business from other lawyers.

Even if someone offers you a lot of money, know which clients are going to be a good fit for you. 

Most of my work comes from other lawyers because of the practice areas. I don't have a walk-off-the-street practice like family law or personal bankruptcies. Other lawyers will refer their clients and clients who have had me will occasionally refer for the most part. I've had a client who owned a business. We bonded when he was a witness in a binding arbitration that I had. Both of our bosses at that time were telling us we were brazen. We needed to do it their way. The two of us said, "Nevermind." We were correct.

He turned out to be a fabulous businessman. He opened a business that posts and publishes foreclosure notices. At the time that he had his company was the height of all the foreclosures. He was able to retire a very wealthy man at the age of 45. He's such a good human being. He's the person you go, "Yay." When he got divorced, he wanted me to handle his divorce. I don't do that law and I told him. He said, "You will know more than my current lawyer." Sadly, he was right.

I said, "I am your business attorney and that is your biggest asset. If you want, I can come to sit in on meetings." He said, "I want you everywhere that the other lawyer is because he doesn't know what he's doing." I said, "Have you considered changing lawyers?" He said, "I have you. I don't need to." Lo and behold, his family law lawyer didn't know less than I did. The only reason I know anything about it was my friend, Marty, who was a good family law lawyer. My clients tend to have a great deal of faith in my abilities and my ability to learn.

It's in your judgment, which is important. It's not just legal but that overall practical judgment in a situation too. Since lawyers tend to collaborate with you or refer things to you, you have done a lot of work with bar associations, Women Lawyers of Los Angeles and other things. Maybe you can talk about how that enhances your practice and also your professional life.

It's important to be with other people that have some similarities and that would be that they're women. When I became a lawyer in 1980, being a woman lawyer was certainly not an easy thing to do. The bottom of the totem pole was a step up. When you have a group of people who have that unspoken background, everyone knew because we were all women of about the same age. I learned a lot from those women. Most of the women were large firm lawyers and they had no idea what it was like not to be in a large firm, whether a small firm or a sole practice.

I remember when I was sitting on the board, I would always say, "These events are way too expensive for sole practitioners. You've got government lawyers not paying when they make twice as much as almost every sole practitioner." One of them said, "I don't believe it." I said, "You don't have to believe it but that's how it is." In a snarky tone of voice, she said, "Why don't you form a sole practitioner committee for us?" I did, which was very successful.

I learned a lot about what it's like to be a female attorney in a large firm. I had been a senior paralegal while I was waiting for bar results at a large downtown firm. They made an offer to me, which was way out of their toolbox. The two partners that I worked for were senior partners. They decided I should have a shot at working for the firm and took my case, which I didn't know was happening to the hiring committee.

They came back to me and said, "There has been an offer for you to work here." I said, "How did that happen?" They told me. I said, out of morbid curiosity, "Was it the offer that I would never be a partner under any circumstances?" They said yes. There wasn't a mommy track at the time. That was the offer. I said, "I wouldn't ever consider that." That means that I'll never have any respect as an attorney, not by clients and the firm. I said no. They said, "Thank God. That's what we thought you would say, so we turned it down for you."

They're like, "We think you would find that unacceptable."

In watching how the women were treated at that firm at that time, it was starting that the firms were being forced to hire women lawyers. In this firm, they hired them, set them up to fail and then fired them.

Even now, people may express concern about women's progress toward partnership or equity partnership. There are many more women coming into firms but very few of them staying. There was an ABA study a couple of years ago that said that there are very senior women lawyers leaving firms at a disproportionate rate. There's always this sense of mystery about why that is. Your first point is exactly still the point that women encounter, which is you know that you're not going to go any further. In other words, you're not going to get credit for business or have leadership positions. There's nowhere more for you to go within the firm. As a person, you tend not to stay somewhere where you think you're not going to grow.

There are a lot of lawyers that want to come in, do their work and not have to think about anything else. That's a perfect slot for that person.

That goes back to knowing who you are and what would make you happy too. Some people are happy with that. I wouldn't be happy with it either, so I understand because I do think the point you made about respect is super important there. Having that opportunity for growth is a certain amount of respect for you as a lawyer that you can grow and that you will be rewarded for that. That to me is the emblem of why that bothers me when that happens. You're not allowing growth for this person as a lawyer, professional or human being. That's stifling. You're going to grow. You would rather be allowed to do it and have it be easier rather than hard.

The other thing I learned that astounded me personally was that young lawyers who are going into these large firms were constantly whining about the long hours. I was in a group. I was facing this way in a group conversation. They were facing this way. I couldn't help myself. I turned around and said, "What are you people complaining about? You're so overpaid. It is absurd. How do you think they're going to get any profit out of you? How do you think you're going to learn by sitting at home and not doing anything? This is how it is. Stop whining or leave." They were not particularly efficient.

You do the math. That's how the firm is. You have to have a certain number of hours so that the firm makes money. You're not bringing in generally as a junior lawyer the work, so it's off of your work that supports those salaries. I did a series in American Lawyer with Norm Bacal, who was a managing partner of a major Canadian law firm. He has since retired but is doing something where we can share basic information like that, "Here's law firm economics. Here's how it works. Here's why there are certain requirements for you. Here's how you get skills. Make sure that you've trained well and you grow in your skills."

"Here's how you make sure you always do well and treat the firm well but you also need to think about you overall in your career meeting other people and getting people exposed to you outside of a firm that will benefit you in the longer run." We did a short series on that for American Lawyer. It's very straight-talking, which people don't usually do. I think of that in the category of not everyone has mentors or sponsors who will share that information. We both felt like we would be that even if we never meet any of these people who read this. We will have a lot more impact broadly than we would otherwise one-on-one.

The most concentrated period of time for learning for me was that I've always worked at small firms. When I came there, there were four of us. There were two associates and two partners. One of the other associates who had been practicing a lot longer than me didn't enjoy being a lawyer, he ended up in a perfect job for him, which he stayed in until he retired. It was managing the lawyers in an insurance defense department for a large insurance company.

That was so perfect. It was a 9:00 to 5:00 job, which is what he wanted because he loved other things in life. This was just a job. There were three of us. The partners realized that I could do enough that they never hired another lawyer. The lawyer that I worked most closely with was the man who became my mentor. We became very close friends and he would do things.

If I was writing something for him, he wouldn't rewrite it. He would give it back to me with comments in the margins that said, "A fact would be nice in this declaration. We don't care what you think." You start thinking about what a declaration is. When I taught, I used to tell my students, "We don't care what you think here. Think it's for the memorandum. Tell me what happens." I remember saying something about Dragnet, "It's just the facts, ma'am." None of these students are old enough to know that.

It's so gratifying to hear the comment you said about how you were trained with those kinds of comments. They might be a little bit harsh but they're straightforward. In my teaching and also with my associates, I want to make sure that you are doing the very best that you can do and that you're thinking about these things.

You should not be spoon-fed particular things because you won't be able to think for yourself in the future when you're doing this and I'm not commenting on your drafts. What those comments do is make you think as they did to you, "This is evidence. This is different from the points of authorities and whatever I'm drafting. I need to be conscious of that when I'm working with this document." If you hadn't had general comments like that, you may not have found that light bulb right away.

The most special thing that ever happened to me in the practice of law was when this man needed a lawyer who knew bankruptcy litigation, which he did not. He hired me. I have arrived. When I became a sole practitioner, he was one of the first calls I made, "If you have an overflow, I'm looking for work." He was primarily a family law lawyer but I wouldn't let him teach me family law because, in those days, those were the girl courts, family law and probate.

I said, "I'm going to the real courts. I'm not going to a family law court." He said, "Okay." Later we worked on some family law things together because I wanted to have a basic understanding of what was going on. The only time I would ever take a divorce is after I called him and said, "I'm contemplating doing this. If I send you every form, would you take the time to look at it, so I don't commit my partners?" He said yes. A simple no kids, no fights and just two people who want to be unmarried, I could do that.

I wouldn't do it now but I could at the time. Marty and I did a tremendous amount of work together. He called me one Friday night and said, "What are you doing tomorrow?" I started telling him and he said, "You're going to be in my office at 10:00. We're meeting with some clients. The trial is in three months and nothing has been done." "Marty, that's what I'm doing tomorrow." Both of us believe the other could do anything.

Back then, firms were forced to hire women lawyers. They'd hire them, set them up to fail, and then fire them.

Together, we were good. We had been writing together for so long. We wrote so many pleadings that unless there was a hereinabove or a thereinafter, you couldn't tell who wrote which paragraph because I don't use those terms. He used more archaic terms. That was the only way you could tell because we look so much alike. I'm a spit-it-out and go-home person. I don't need to have a brief that's twenty pages when it could be five pages.

That is amazing when you can reach that seamlessness with someone in terms of writing as well.

We thought a lot alike.

I always think about mentoring and sponsorship in different settings. What you described is the purest form of mentoring and having faith in someone else. You encapsulated it when you said, "We both believed either of us was capable of anything." The sky is the limit. You can accomplish a lot more together when you have that mutual faith in each other too.

Also, because we had worked together as employee and employer, he knew my working habits.

I love the story of that call where it's like, "This is what you're doing tomorrow." "That sounds good. I'll see you there."

I miss him.

I'm sure you do because that sounds pretty special. That's a beautiful mentoring story. Thanks for sharing that.

He was what every lawyer would dream of having as a mentor. He yelled at me sometimes because he would yell. The lawyer who's being the mentor has to be an excellent lawyer. Otherwise, what you're learning is worth nothing.

I pay a lot more attention to that now. That's where this show came from in terms of the next generation. I feel like there's a certain point in your practice where you concentrate on that and think about, "I'm only going to be around for so long. There are only so many individual people I can train with those skills on a one-on-one basis in my practice. How can I maximize that, reach more people and ensure that the next generation is in good standing should they wish to take advantage of these pieces of wisdom that are there for them and can move the way forward?"

I think about women law students and lawyers in particular in that way and having them see the many wonderful things that women lawyers have already done on the bench and off and that they can do too. It's to dream and imagine a bunch of different other ways we have never even thought of yet in terms of how they can have an impact on their training.

I have to think women are more collaborative generally. If you have like minds or someone who wants to figure out what they want to do, women mentoring women is helpful. Marty was very special. My friend Lloyd is special but they aren't the general boy lawyers. They're people who want to help you succeed and want their clients to know, "If I'm ever not here, here she is."

 That's special in people, in general, truly wanting to do it for the benefit of both the clients and another person. It's very genuine.

Marty wanted to do it for me at first because then he could do other things. If I can write the briefs and do the motions, he didn't play golf but he could go do something else.

There's a time in life when that's appropriate too, so that all works out. That's good to have had those experiences. Many times, there were people that I don't even know who stepped in and said, "What about an offer at this firm?" They're going in, negotiating on your behalf and standing up for you in a room that you're not in. You could never have done that because you're not in the room to make the ask. Many people stepped in at those points whom we may not even know about and helped that key points.

I felt so honored that they thought that much of me. I didn't go to a big school. I did graduate very close to the top of my class. I was Editor-in-Chief of our law review. I was flabbergasted that it ever occurred to them even to make the push. They had a great deal of respect for my work.

That's another compliment for your character and integrity. People see that too. That's pretty cool. What advice do you have for lawyers who might want to start their own firm? Are there a couple of lessons learned or things that you're like, "I hadn't thought of this but this is important?"

You have to set up an office, know what you need in it, what software and library you're going to need. You have to know if you can do the administrative tasks or whether you're going to need someone else. I'm a person that can keep my own books. I have systems for everything. My sister on the other hand in her business has always had a secretary, administrator and bookkeeper. You have to know that about yourself.

The other thing that I have always told people unless you already have clients that are following you, is to get on the phone and call the lawyers you know. The worst they can say is, "I would never refer anyone to you." You know that now. The best they can say is, "I will keep that in mind." Hope that they do. Some will and some won't. Offer to do overflow work and contract work, so you see so many other styles of work.

That's true too and that gets the referral system flowing as well. Sometimes you have to put that idea directly in someone's mind. You think, "This person knows me. They know what I do. We see each other." No, you can't.

That's my stone-baking buddy.

They put you in like, "Here's this," but not thinking about the other.

One young man said, "How am I going to go ask lawyers for work?" I said, "You pick up that square box and it has buttons on it that you push. Call a number that you know." I've done a lot of work with lawyers out-of-state for various reasons. If I like them and think they're good lawyers, I will keep that number or contact. I've referred people to some of these lawyers that I've either worked with or who were opposing lawyers out-of-state.

Even the listservs for the bar associations or things like that. People say, "I'm looking for X lawyer in Arizona." You're like, "I happen to know someone. I can recommend them or put their name out there." There are a lot of opportunities like that to pay it forward, help other people and say, "I know this person. I've worked with them." You will feel confident giving their name.

Good mentorship is where both parties believe that they could do anything.

The other thing I would suggest is to join bar associations, start going to some of the functions and get on the referrals panel. The other thing that I do is tell them to find networking groups where they have an interest, not because they're lawyers or were looking for people to hire for their corporate networking groups. It has to be something that you're going to like. Maybe it's a hiking group or a sewing group.

I had one friend who loved to quilt, "There were a lot of people in there that had needs or new people who had needs. They're chitchatting. The lawyer gets a phone call." I always say, "It's not going to happen overnight." I always tell people, "If the group meets once a month, give it at least a year or two. If you're still not getting any referrals, then you're not going to." Don't expect because sunshine walks in the room that people are not afraid of being sunburned and putting on sunscreen.

I've even had some circumstances where it's somebody I met or worked with years ago or something like that who I didn't even know would refer something to me. I get a call and they say, "Jim referred us to you." "I haven't talked to Jim in a long time." All of those efforts cumulate even if something doesn't happen in a year or a year and a half. Maybe it means you've changed the activities but it doesn't mean that it won't bear fruit. You just don't know when it will be. It's persistence and a long game.

The other thing I tell people is, "Do not appear at a networking meeting if you're having a miserable day." That's what they will remember. Don't go if the worst thing in your life happened last night, you're mad at the world or you have so much work you can't even see straight. Skip it. Don't make a bad impression. No impression is much better than a bad impression.

That's a very pragmatic point because sometimes they say, "I'm going to go because I committed to this. I should do this." I have a couple of times I'll admit where I have this full day and I'm supposed to go to some bar event or something. I say, "No, that's too much for me. That's going to drain me too much for the next day. I can't do it. There are limits that we have as humans. Also, I don't feel like it." I've gone for twenty minutes and I'm like, "That's all I got. The rest of it is going to be cranky. I'm leaving." To your point, it's better not to be in that cranky zone with people. Nobody wants to see that. We will do a little bit of lightning round questions to round out. What talent would you most like to have but you don't?

It's more patience. It's so easy for me.

Who are your favorite writers?

It's Michener. I've read a lot of Dickens and Alison Weir. I love history. These are all historical. Alison Weir is nonfiction. Dickens and Michener are fiction. Those are the ones that I would name right off the bat.

Do you read them all over a few days? Those are large novels, generally, that we're talking about. Do you devour them over a week? Do you read them in pieces as you can?

It's the latter. Before the pandemic, I went to the gym every day in the morning for half an hour, sitting on a bike or something else that was aerobic. I would read there. I miss that time. Also, I would often read before I went to bed.

That's how I ended up reading too. I wish I could do that but it's hard. Sometimes the choice is doing it in pieces or not at all. You're like, "I still want to be exposed to this and read good writing."

I don't have God's longest attention span. Reading in pieces works fine for me.

Who are your heroes in real life?

It's my grandmother and my father. They led by example.

I figured you were going to say that based on what you said. For what in your life do you feel most grateful?

It's that I know who I am and that I'm taking the time. I know what I can give, what I need to take and what's off the table for me.

That's a lifelong process. It's good to reach that point. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest?

It's Queen Elizabeth I in her real person, not her queenship person. She was entirely two different people. In the fifth grade, the first time I ever had to write a little paper, I wrote about her. Every time I had to write a paper, I would learn more. I still read any book I can find.

The last question is what is your motto if you have one?

“I'm a girl. I can do anything.”

That's a perfect way to close up our discussion on the show. I so appreciate you joining the show, Hillary. Thank you.

Thank you for asking. I feel honored.