Episode 165: Rita Gruber
Arkansas Court of Appeals
00:51:35
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Show Notes
Arkansas Court of Appeals Judge Rita Gruber describes her career on both the trial court and appellate bench and her unexpected path to judicial service. Along the way, she shares some life wisdom and tips for effective advocacy.
About Rita Gruber:
Judge Rita W. Gruber was elected to the Arkansas Court of Appeals on May 20, 2008 and took office January 1, 2009. Judge Gruber was born in North Little Rock and educated in the public schools in Pulaski County. She received a BA (1973 UALR) and JD (1979 University of Arkansas at Little Rock, now the Bowen School of Law). She completed eighteen years as a Circuit Judge for the Sixth Judicial District on December 31, 2008. While serving on the trial bench, she helped establish a Volunteer Probation Officer program to work with first time juvenile offenders. She also established a specialized teen parenting program, a truancy alternative school and helped plan the CSTP juvenile boot camp at Camp Robinson. Before her election as Circuit Judge she served as interim Pulaski County Judge and had a ten year law practice in North Little Rock, Arkansas. She is a member and has served on many committees with the Pulaski County and Arkansas Bar Associations as well as being a member of the American Bar Association. Judge Gruber is very active in her community serving on many boards and committees. She worked closely with the Bowen School of Law developing mediation programming, particularly for juvenile cases. She is married to Judge Wayne A. Gruber and has two adult children.
Transcript
On the show, I’m very pleased to have join me and to talk to you all, Judge Rita Gruber on the Arkansas Court of Appeal. Welcome, Judge.
Thank you very much. I appreciate being asked to be on this show.
Thank you so much for being part of it. Typically, I start with the basic or the fundamental question of what brought you to law, what caused you to want to either go to law school or what made you think you want to be a lawyer.
I had a circuitous route to the law. I grew up in a family where I knew zero lawyers. I knew there were judges and lawyers from the popular culture. As far as knowing anybody, I didn’t know. I was the first person in my family that went to undergraduate or college. What prompted my interest in it was I took an undergraduate course in Constitutional Law and I found it very interesting. I did well in that course and I thought maybe this is a career path. About that same time, I met my future husband and I told you earlier that we celebrated 50 years of marriage.
He had a very strong interest in going to law school and becoming a lawyer. Once we decided that we were going to get married, that was our career goal together. We decided that we were going to go to law school and we, in fact, did. We started law school the same day and we finished the same day in the same law school. A lot of people think we met in law school, but we didn't. We had been married for several years before we went to law school. I went to law school here in Arkansas at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock. We now say the University of Arkansas Little Rock and the Bowen School of Law is the current name of the law school.
It was a very interesting experience because I had always done well in school but it was on a completely different level going to law school and attending. It was one of these things where it cemented my hope and desire to help people and I saw that the law was a wonderful way of doing that. There are many different paths that you can follow in the law. What I found to be most interesting to me was how could I make our community a better place to live. That was my mantra when I was in law school and after I graduated. I wanted to be a lawyer and at least be able to make enough money to support my family, but also, I wanted to do something good to make our community a better place to live.
The law has a lot of power to do that certainly. Many on the show have said, “I wanted to do something and I saw that the law was the way to have the biggest impact to serve and to help a larger group of people in the community.” Being a judge seems like a natural evolution of that desire.
This was not on my radar that was something that I would do. As I said, my husband and I started law school and graduated together but it was him that was more interested in the political side of it. In Arkansas, all the judges are elected., Federal judges and administrative law judges are not elected but pretty much every other level of judge in the state of Arkansas is elected. My husband was very interested in writing for office. We all make plans and think things are going to work out a certain way. Our family goal was to get him elected to office.
The Lord's plan for us is always somewhat different than what we think it's going to be. As it turned out, my husband had the opportunity to do some public service law for the local legislative body which in Arkansas is called a Quorum Court and he got appointed as the county attorney for the Quorum Court. We were practicing law together so he naturally said, “Can you help me with this and that and something else.”
As it turned out, the administrator for the county which is called a County Judge in Arkansas decided to retire or quit after a few months of reelection. You could say I was in the right place at the right time. They'd never had a female County Judge in Pulaski County so the common court elected me to serve in that role.
Once I got in that role, some other opportunities came about including the opportunity to run for the trial court level. We called it at that. We were divided at that point into circuit court and chancery court. There was a new type of work that was created to mainly hear juvenile-type cases. It was called a Circuit Chancery Judge and that's what I ran for and got elected to. In fact, the campaign consultant that I used, we had initially gone in to talk to her about my husband running for a position and she said, “The wrong Gruber is running for office. Gruber needs to run for that office because she is the county judge and getting all this publicity. She's the one that should run.” I guess she was right. I did and got elected.
She knows what she’s talked about.
It was interesting because I had gone from a small law practice and I went to be appointed as County Judge. I had about 1,000 employees that I was responsible for and I learned, as a result of that experience, that I had some administrative skills that I had no idea I had available to me. I learned that I liked being able to use those planning skills, interpersonal relationships skills, and learning how to delegate things to the appropriate people.
I learned that when you hire somebody, you should hire the best person that you possibly can for the position. There were a lot of valuable lessons that I learned from. I was only there for twenty months, but we did accomplish quite a bit during that time period, including getting a temporary sales tax to build a new jail here in Pulaski County.
This was during the time of the read my lips, no new taxes but we were able to pass that because there was a tremendous need. We were under a Federal court order not to add any more beds to the existing facility. We got out there and worked hard and got the tax passed. I fielded calls from all over the country including the New York Times to say, “How did you do that? How did you possibly get a tax pass in this type of environment?”
The key to it was it was a temporary tax. It has some laws on there and secondly, because of all the publicity leading up to the tax election, people knew that it needed to be done. It wasn't that we want the money and we're going to go out there and build something frivolous or whatever. It was a need that was unmet in our county. It’s an interesting experience.
I think about the administrative part of some judicial positions. It is something that not a lot of people think about. It’s what we think about the decision-making and that role in particular cases. Depending on your role as a judge, you have a lot of administrative responsibilities and also big-picture things like you're talking about. It’s like, “We have this whole system and we need to fund this other part of the system. How do we do that?” There’s a lot of persuasion from all of that too.
I thought that it helped me when I went out to the Circuit Chancery position. Since it was primarily juvenile cases that I was hearing at that time, there was a great need. You may remember this or you may not but we had a terrible gang problem in the United States about that time and we were able to get grant monies, which I knew how to administer because of my experiences being a county judge. At that time, we had about $1.5 million of grants that we were administering for the county to expand the services that were provided to children and families. We were able to develop a volunteer probation officer program that worked with first offenders trying to keep children and young people from going deeper into the criminal justice system.
We had a bifurcated parenting class for juvenile mothers and their parents on how to take care of babies. Also, for the parent on how to parent. They are now parents of a baby. We were able to work with the state of Arkansas and the National Guard, and we developed a juvenile boot camp. That was not the first. That was one of the first in the United States and it was a cooperative effort between the juvenile court system, the state of Arkansas, and the Arkansas National Guard. It was very successful and is still in existence and has been one of the best things that's happened in the state of Arkansas as far as working with juvenile offenders. The list goes on. There are other things there.
That's amazing. I was also thinking, in your position there, it was a new court and a new position. You had a lot of opportunities to do some structural things with it that might not have otherwise been there.
I say sometimes being at the right place at the right time is very helpful.
Your experience before helps you be comfortable with that. Having the experience on the bench prior to that gave you perhaps a little more comfort at dealing with things that others might have been a little fast coming at you if you hadn't had that prior experience.
Also, since I’ve been on the Arkansas Court of Appeals, I served a four-year term as chief judge. The administrative skills came in handy at that point as well. I feel that you have to build on your skills. Most of us are not born to be a judge from the get-go and many of us aren’t born to be an administrator. One message I would like to get across is that young women should be open to trying new experiences. Even if it's something that perhaps is outside of your comfort area at that point, you might give it a try. See if you like it. Sometimes, doors open that may be your only opportunity to do something like that.
What I found was that usually, doors open for a reason. I would highly recommend to young people to keep in mind that they should be open. Although it may not be a straight path from law school to being a judge, every step along the way can build skill levels for you so that when you do become a judge, an administrator, or whatever it is that you want to do with your legal career, these are all stepping stones that help you get to where you want and need to be and become the best possible judge or administrator or whatever it is that you possibly be.
It's so true. A lot of career stories are that way. It may have not gone away as you had planned but as it turns out, looking back all makes sense. You have built all of these various blocks along the way that make sense of like, “I had these skills. I was perfectly set to handle that particular task, goal, or position.” You would not have known that.
I also think what you said is important. Sometimes we think about things in terms of positions. “I’ve never been a judge before so I don't know how to do that,” but the skills that are part of being a judge, you may have some of those skills or you might have, as you said, some latent skills you didn't even know about. Unless you go out and go out on a limb to try something, you won't know that.
As an aside, my husband is also a judge. I’m the senior judge and he’s the junior judge. It’s because I’ve been a judge longer than he has but I’m on the appellate level and he's a state district court judge. He hears your entry-level cases in the judicial system. One of the things I learned when I was a circuit chancery judge and then he's learned as a district judge is you have to have patience. You have to have empathy with people even if you're having a bad day.
Everyone that comes into your courtroom is probably having a worse day than you're having because they're having to come to court. What's the better way that you should approach court? Should you be in a bad mood, grumpy, and understanding of people's problems, or should you try to be upbeat? Should you try to understand that this is probably one of the worst days of their entire life? Treat them with respect and dignity when they come before your court. Both of us can say that that's the way we want to approach our court and that's the way we would want to be treated if we were litigants in the court.
Especially in the trial courts or the entry courts, that may be one of the only experiences that people have with the court system at all. It's important for them to know that they were treated fairly.
It's the golden rule. That's what you have to do. Sometimes, you do have to set aside. Maybe you are having a bad day but you need to set that aside. Remember that you're a professional and you've got a job to do and do it to the best of your ability. Sometimes that means having a smile on your face even when you don't want to.
That's sometimes necessary even when you're not on the bench. Be able to set that aside and do that but it's more important on the bench. It's so funny that you mentioned your husband is also on the bench. I clerked for Judge Alicemarie Stotler on the Federal District Court out here and her husband was on the State Trial Court bench. I’m used to, as we call, the Judges Stotler. In this case, the Judges Gruber. He did eventually have to go into the whole election realm as well as you did but you got to test the waters first. That's good advice overall career-wise for doing something outside your comfort zone, particularly if you want to apply to the bench. Sometimes you have to take the leap.
This is a decision that you should make. Give it a lot of thought. I was a Trial Court Judge and eventually, we merged the two systems. We did a constitutional amendment here in Arkansas to merge the two courts. Everybody is a Circuit judge now, but one of the things that happened to me was I did the Circuit Court bench for eighteen years and I had thought that when I retired, I would retire. Another door opened and I started getting some different folks talking to me about running for the Court of Appeals. The first time, it was one of the sitting female judges on the Court of Appeals. She was twisting my arm a little bit trying to get me to run for the Court of Appeals. At that point, I wasn't ready to do that.
Even though I’d never served on the appellate level, I knew that it was a very different experience being a trial court judge. For one thing, your phone rings off the hook and you've got people coming in and out constantly. I was in court many hours every single day almost five days a week. It was a very busy docket. I was thinking about that as opposed to reading briefs and maybe having oral arguments every once in a while. I was like, “I don't know. I didn't think that was the type of world that I wanted or that I was ready for.” However, it was interesting when I was probably about year sixteen of my time on the Circuit bench, it's like a switch went off.
People again started talking to me about the possibility of running for the Court of Appeals. At that point, my thought process and discussions started leaning towards doing that. What I found was that eighteen years of experience on the trial bench has been invaluable to me on the Court of Appeals because, for one thing, you know the thought process of being a trial court judge. You know that you have to make quicker decisions. We have the luxury of time at the Court of Appeals to read the briefs, study the record, and get up to speed on things. We have law clerks to research the issues for us in addition to the briefs that are provided to us.
I was lucky. I did have a law clerk on the trial court. That was very helpful but it's a different experience. What I found is that without that experience, I don't think I could be the judge that I am now. I can understand better why a trial judge does what he or she does and the decision-making process because, as a trial judge, not always, but most of the time, very quick decisions.
For example, evidentiary issues. Whereas you have a little bit more time to look at it, study it, and think about it. It's a different experience. Every experience that you have in life comes there when you are any type of judge. I have found it true on the appellate bench as well. That's why it's so good to have different people from different backgrounds on an appellate court because everybody brings a different experience.
I bring an experience where I primarily, as a Trial Court judge, did juvenile cases. I did a few other types of cases too but primarily, it was juvenile type of cases. I have a real heart for children. On dependency neglect cases that have to do with children being in foster care, my heart is with the children. I don't think you set that aside because you come to the appellate bench. I know that every day, every month that we take to decide cases means that child remains in foster care until they can get a permanent home. I’ve been the squeaky wheel here on the court, reminding people about that because we'll get a motion that perhaps one of the attorneys wants an extension of time to follow the brief.
Sometimes they do need it but do they really need 30 full days or do they need that 60 days that they say they need when we're talking about a child sitting in foster care? That's one of the reasons why I’m on this court. It is because I’ve had that experience. I have worked with children and families and I know some of the dynamics that go into all of that. Why we do have expedited appeals involving dependency neglect cases?
The fact that I’m a parent and a grandparent, that's important to have that experience on the court. We do handle a lot of cases involving children and families. All of those are things that were brought home and brought into the Appellate process. Is it going to change anything most of the time? No, but it makes you focus on issues probably a little bit better when you've had that experience.
“What I found was that eighteen years of experience on the trial bench has been invaluable to me on the Court of Appeals because, for one thing, you know the thought process of being a trial court judge. You know that you have to make quicker decisions.”
Having a wide variety of that experience, especially because on the appellate bench, it's a consensus. One vote is not going to be a decision make so having those different perspectives among the members of the panel can be helpful to have different things brought to light in the discussion. Sometimes, doors open and you think, “That is the only time that door is going to open. If I don't do it now, even if I don't feel it's quite right for me now, it may not open again.” It's a good lesson from your experience.
It may not have been the right time for you to apply to the appellate bench, but then it did and it didn't mean that there was only one time that was going to happen. Came back if it's the right thing for you where you can make a difference. That's helpful because you want the doors open for a reason, but sometimes you think, “It was only that one time and I blew it. I didn't do it.” If it's right for you, then it'll come back. I wanted to ask you about your position as chief judge too. Is that chosen by the other members of your court or is that a separate position that's appointed from outside?
It is appointed by the Chief Justice of the Arkansas Supreme Court. It is statutory and typically a four-year term.
What kinds of things were particular to that role? It sounds like more of your administrative powers coming to bear in that regard. I know that at the Supreme Court level, there are certainly court rules and various things that the Chief Justice gets involved with. What additional duties or responsibilities would go with being the Chief of the Court of Appeals?
You are exactly right that it is administrative. Typically, the chief judge will preside over the whole court. When we made en banc, the chief judge would preside over that session. With our court, we do that on Tuesdays. We all twelve made it that point and we generally do motions and petitions for rehearing. We also take up any other court business that we may need to take up regarding personnel issues or budgetary-type things that may come up.
The chief judge also pretty much handles everything that is in between our Tuesday meetings. Most things are going to be in consultation with the whole court but there are certain things that the chief judge takes care of pretty much organizing and making sure that everything goes along smoothly. We have a chief staff attorney who is our court administrator. The chief judge and the chief staff attorney work very closely together to make sure that everything that needs to be done for our court to operate efficiently gets done. A lot of interim minor motions, the chief justice takes care of that as well.
There are some lays-on with the Supreme Court that are associated with being the chief judge as well. Mainly, it's making sure that the train runs on time. Some things don't get off track if there are issues that come up. For example, during my term, we had the pandemic. We went from meeting every week in person on Tuesdays and Wednesdays to having to do it remotely. We were very fortunate that our IT department in the Justice building already had the software and the physical hardware that was necessary in order to do the Zoom conference. We got that all set up within one week. The chief judge has to step up and help facilitate going from in-person conferencing to Zoom conferencing.
That was a test on so many levels for courts across the country. In the beginning, the question was, “Did you have that infrastructure already?” You could pivot quickly. If not, you had to build that in. That's good that you already had something to work with to start there.
We wouldn't have been able to do it within a week for the fact that we already had the infrastructure that was set up to do that. The other thing was we had good news, bad news type of thing. There had been a project to expand the physical plant for the Justice building which was the good news. The funding came through right before the pandemic hit. We've had this huge construction project going on once things open back up again. We've been pretty much in a constant state of flux as far as moving in and out of the building. Even when it wasn't a question of the pandemic, we've had to move out. I know earlier in March 2023, we had to move out again. Because of all the construction projects, there were some snafus.
We found out that a roof was not installed properly many years ago. We knew we had leaking problems. We found out why it was leaking. It was because the roof was improperly installed. That caused problems so we've had to completely recarpet everything on the second floor and repaint everything. At that point, we had to move all of our personal things out so that they could get all that accomplished. It's been an interesting last few years between the pandemic and the construction project. We're all back in again and hopefully, we won't have any more snafus like that in the foreseeable future.
It seems like they were all bunched together. Hopefully, there will be none for a while. Who would have thought about the facilities and the construction aspects? I know some judges out here on some courts where that's going on. It’s like, “They're old buildings. They need to be redone.” Things will happen structurally. “Courtroom five has a flood coming from the ceiling. Fix that.” They say, “I never knew that would be in my purview as chief judge or PJ. I need to find a new courtroom because this one is waterlogged or whatever.” You feel the stuff as it comes up.
When you say, “What does this Chief Judge do?” typically, these are the things we do but then you have these emergencies that come out.
Keeping everything running on time includes that stuff. Who knew that you need a construction hat and think that was part of it? What kind of advice would you give to advocates in terms of writing briefs or arguing to the court, even trial or appellate court tips from your many years on the bench now?
An often-overlooked aspect of both trial-level and appellate-level practice is that people think, “I’ve learned everything in law school. I don't need to open the books anymore.” I remember when I was in law school, I believe it was called Research Writing and Advocacy, the instructor said, “Do not ever go into court, especially appellate work because everybody doesn't do appellate work all the time, you should always get the books out and read the rules again.” I took that to heart. What I see on the appellate level is a situation where people think, “It can't be that hard to write a brief.” Particularly now with electronic filings, they don't have to do the abstract and the addendums anymore.
The thing is there are still rules and things that they are required to do and we're having to send things back because they haven't done them properly. I would pick up the book and read the rules then it would make it a lot easier on them and it would make it easier on the judges as well. That in a nutshell would be one of the most important things that an advocate should do.
If you've never done a brief before to an appellate judge, don't try to wing it. Try to get an example. Go to a trusted member of the bar that you know that does appellate work and ask them if they would be willing to share one of their briefs so that you can see what it looks like and what you're supposed to do. Are there some nuances that you need to know? Be prepared.
Don’t try to wing it if you’ve never done a brief before to an appellate court.
The same thing is true with the trial court. I can remember well-known and generally very well-respected attorneys coming into my court and the first words out of their mouths would be, “I’ve never done juvenile before and I haven't read the statute or the rules, but I’m here. I’m going to advocate for my client.” My thought was you don't go into court that way. You don't go in unprepared. If you don't know what the juvenile code says, then you should get the book out and read the juvenile code or at least the parts that apply to the type of case that you're handling. You don't go in and announce that you don't know anything about it.
That's tremendous.
Flying by the seat of your pants doesn't work anymore. Maybe in the old days, you could do it that way but it doesn't work that way. You should be prepared. If anything, you should be over-prepared. I practiced law for about ten years before I got appointed as County Judge and I’ve been out of private practice since then. Pretend this is your case and you wouldn't go in unprepared on your own personal case. You shouldn't go in unprepared in any case. If you're going to get paid or you're representing someone, you should be prepared. It's better to be over-prepared than under-prepared.
It’s better to be over-prepared than under-prepared.
It's so true. That way, you're ready for things. I think about that in the appellate argument. Preparing makes you more comfortable presenting the argument and there are fewer unexpected questions. If there are any, you have more bandwidth to handle them because you've prepared everything else. In your court, does the panel confer prior to argument or is it only after argument about discussing the cases and decisions? I know it varies by court.
In our court, we get a fair number of oral arguments, but certainly not in every single case. We have a very collegial court. We talk to each other. Our law clerks talk to each other. It is not uncommon. Once a case is submitted to the three-judge panel, which is how we initiate cases or almost all cases are with the three-judge panel, it is not uncommon at all for the judges to perhaps email each other about a particular issue involving a case that is assigned to them. It is extremely common for law clerks to communicate with each other. Again, our court wants to have a good work product and we don't see having a good work product as necessarily butting our heads all the time.
We see it as trying to collaborate. I want to know if in fact 1 of the other judges or the other 2 judges on my panel have a different take on a case. I would like to know that because they may be right and maybe my approach is wrong or it may help me to be better prepared to meet their point of view or their argument on how the case should be decided. I’ll be better prepared to say, “No. This is the reason why I feel like we would be better off handling it in a different fashion.” I feel that that's what's been the currency that makes our court special and makes it a collegial court. It is because we're not trying to do a gotcha thing.
We're trying to get a good work product. We want the right decision to the best of our ability. Obviously, sometimes the litigants will ask for review by the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court may not agree with us. However, the thing about it is we've given it our best shot and it's not that we're in total disagreement about how a case should be approached. Do we always agree? No. That's when we go to either a 6 or 9-judge panel. We are trying to the best of our ability to get the best work product possible.
That's what you want whether it's as a practicing lawyer or a judge. That's what you should be working towards. I find the same thing. I like that input. I like the discussions of lone wolfing where there's a team that you can talk to. You get a better result. It's written better. You’re thinking about different aspects of the case. You get a better result that way when you have input from everyone. That's great to hear that that's how it operates on your court. Do the judges decide whether there are arguments in the case?
Under our rules, the litigants are required to request it at the time they file their briefs.
Is it still in your discretion to grant it?
Yes, it is. As I said, we've got a chief staff attorney who serves as our court administrator and she generally reviews all requests for oral arguments either she says yes or no. If she says no, she lets the litigants know that they can file a motion and to us as a court if we want to hear oral arguments. Sometimes we grant it. Sometimes we don't.
That is from court to court so I was curious. I’m thinking about leadership because of your administrative positions in the various courts. What do you think your style of leadership is or any tips for those who might be leading others?
First and foremost, the thing to remember if you're going to be a leader is that you ultimately have to take responsibility for what happens. When I’ve been in an administrative position, I want to get the very best person I can for each role of people that’s serving with me. If I need a comptroller, I will get the best comptroller I can get in that position. Here on the court, I want to get the best staff attorney I possibly can get for that position. In my personal office, I’m going to get the best law clerks that I can possibly get. I’m loyal. When I get somebody in, I want them to stay. I don't necessarily like having a constant rotation. In some positions, you're going to have that.
In my administrative assistant position, I have been having part-time law students primarily to serve in that position. I do that because 1) I know they're very smart or they wouldn't be in that position. 2) It is a mentoring and learning experience. When they come in, they learn how the Court of Appeals works. Once they get their feet on the ground, we start giving them easier cases that are like administrative appeals. We get their feet wet. We engage them in our in-office conferences so that they understand what we're discussing and what we're talking about.
I’ve taken on externs from the two law schools here in Arkansas for the same reason because I want to play some small part and get people into the appellate law area who know what they're talking about. They understand we've got rules. There's a certain procedure to follow that is what the judges are looking at. I’ll be starting my 15th year and I’ll be retiring after 2024. I have had between 1 and 2 externs every year and some years, I’ve had more than that. I’ve trained quite a few people.
That's quite a legacy and I feel this way. I teach in an appellate clinic at all law schools out here. Even if the people or the students in the clinic don't end up becoming appellate lawyers or doing a lot of appeals, it's very valuable to them to have those skills to understand the difference between the courts and to elevate their writing and analytical thinking because that can be applied to whatever they do next.
I like to say that anyone who has been an extern or an AA in my office has passed the bar exam because they're going to see every decision. We circulate our opinions to everybody on the court so they have the opportunity to read every circulating opinion. They have the ability to sit in our oral arguments and the Supreme Court's oral arguments. Their writing skill is important as well. I’ve got top-notch law clerks and they help with the editing and learn how to edit. This thing has been a win-win situation for everybody involved.
That sounds great. I love the digital assistant role for part-time law students. I like that because you're going to soak up so much being in the environment. It's very helpful. That's cool.
As a caveat, sometimes I’ve not been able to get a part-time law student but I’ve had actual lawyers that have wanted to work here. Again, that's great too because they're getting the skills and it's been in the AA position. They're getting some additional skills and on-the-job training as well as serving in that position. In my mind, it has been a wonderful experience for me personally and as a judge, but also for the people who have started in that position.
That relationship with someone who's very interested and invested in your growth and the closeness of that relationship. We are working in the judges' chambers. It's a wonderful experience. It was for me and I know it for many others. It's a great way to start a career to even have an externship during law school. It's great. Usually, I end with a few lightning-round questions but I want to make sure we covered them in terms of the top tips for appellate brief writing or oral argument. I know you said to read the rules and know the rules, but I didn't know if there was anything else you wanted to add.
I would say get to the point. What are your points on appeal? I cannot tell you the number of times we have gotten briefs where I’ll look at the points on appeal and then you get into the actual brief and they're not addressing those points on appeal. If you've got a point on appeal, address the point on appeal. Don't address something else.
That is a good tip all around for writing but particularly about writing because that's a long brief. You have to read and you're like, “I thought this was the point. When are you going to get to that point?”
I have had to go back and say, “What is the point here?” Under our rules, you have to set forth the points separately in the brief. You get into the body and the brief and they don't match. I’m like, “What?” I’m talking about lawyer briefs. There needs to be some serious editing going on. People are going back and proofreading. We don't expect perfection at all, but you should have some pride of authorship.
[In brief writing:] get to the point. What are your points on appeal? I cannot tell you the number of times we have gotten briefs where I’ll look at the points on appeal and then you get into the actual brief and they’re not addressing those points on appeal.
The first unreviewed draft should not be what’s there. Which talent would you like most to have but don't?
I’ve always wanted to be able to sing, but I don't have that ability.
There are performers and the performers need an audience. That's an important role too. Who are some of your favorite writers?
There are several. I like Ann Patchett a lot. There's an author named Marilynne Robinson. I’ve read several of her books. There are a lot of authors that I like. The problem with being on the Appellate Court is we have so much reading. My pleasure reading is cut way down except around Christmas at the end of the year, we have a break and then we have some weeks during the summer. That's when I generally get my pleasure from reading.
Who is your hero in real life?
It's not one person. It is every one that gets up and does their job every day, day in and out, and does it to the best of their ability regardless of who they are or what they do. Those are my heroes.
That fits with what we've discussed previously so that does not surprise me. For what in life do you feel most grateful?
I feel very grateful that I have had the life that's been given to me.
That's good to be able to say, isn't it?
It is. It hasn't been perfect. It has not always been enjoyable but you get one life and you have to do the best that you can with that life. It's a lot better when you go in with a positive attitude.
You get one life, and you have to do the best with that life. It’s much better when you go in with a positive attitude.
That's true. That can be hard when it's challenging but it’s the way through. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite as a dinner guest? Living or not and it could be several people.
It'd be my family. My family has been so important to me. I have a husband. I’ve got two children who are both lawyers. One time, I said, “Everybody in our family is a lawyer except our first grandson.” I’m a lawyer. My husband is a lawyer. My daughter and son are lawyers. My daughter's husband is a lawyer and then they had our first grandson. Only our grandson is not a lawyer. My son got married. His wife is not a lawyer but her dad is a lawyer that we went to law school with. We’ve got lawyers everywhere.
That's funny. The grandson might be a lawyer eventually, so we'll see. It seems like that could happen. We’ll see what works for them. The good thing about being a lawyer is there are so many different things you can do that are very different. There's a lot of flexibility.
My daughter is not practicing law. She is an administrator for a foundation in Austin, Texas. She had worked as an administrator for the Rockefeller Foundation here in Arkansas. Because Arkansas generally is a smaller state, she had the opportunity to move to Austin. She had lived there after she graduated from college. She did teach for America for a few years and then they moved to Austin, Texas, and got a Master’s there before she came back to Arkansas and got her Law degree. She is with a foundation called Saint David's which is an offshoot of a big medical center in the Austin, Texas area.
That's great. Those skills can translate in so many other ways. That's one of the things I hope to share on the show. Legal training can be applied in so many other ways. You can serve without practicing law and adapt your career throughout your life to various things that you would like to do. One of the good things about legal training is that those skills are translatable and valuable in so many other settings.
The director of nonprofits is one where a lot of lawyers land. I have a friend who runs a nonprofit out here and she very clearly articulates her work as a trial lawyer and her skills from that. She uses it to advocate for her kids and everyone that she's serving through her nonprofit. She's very clear-eyed about how those skills translate. She's a beautiful caring director of this nonprofit doing amazing things. Last question. What is your motto if you have one?
Treat others the way you want to be treated.
I heard that echoed in some of your comments earlier. I thought what a beautiful way of thinking about that. One thing in particular you said would you be unprepared if it was your case in court if you were the party in the case. I thought that's a good way of looking at that. It meant that fits with your motto and the golden rule as you said.
The other thing is, “Do justice that shows mercy.”
Do justice that shows mercy.
There's room for compassion and empathy for sure. When you're talking about some of the work with juveniles, I feel like there are some opportunities for the law to treat people holistically. It's good to do that because it's another way of serving an individual who might come before you instead of treating this one small part of their life. As you said, it’s probably the worst day in their life, and see if there's something you can do to make them whole.
That was one of the things I liked the most about juvenile court. Again, it's a very stressful place to be. A lot of people don't want to be there at all, but the thing about it is you have the opportunity to change lives more so than in any other legal setting. One of the things that I appreciated about the juvenile system in Arkansas, and it's probably true everywhere in the United States, is that you're trying not just to work with the child that you're working with the entire family. I saw that sometimes you can't do that much with the child if you don't also provide services and do something for the parent. I recall one time, early on, it was driven home to me that I had this young man who was supposed to come to court and he didn't show up.
We issued a pick-up order and he came into court. His mother is there and comes to find out the reason why he didn't show up for court was because they've been served. The sheriff had gone out and served them, but Mom couldn't read and she didn't take it to anyone and have anybody read it to her. At that point, we were on a contempt hearing about why she didn't show up. I said, “Clearly, you had the ability to take this summons to someone and have them read it to you. You didn't do that so that's contemptible behavior on your part. What I’m going to do is refer you to a literacy program here in Pulaski County.”
She stood up and said, “Your honor, you can't do that. You can just put me in jail.” I said, “No. That's not what I want to do. What I want to do is require you to go to literacy.” That was the order and so I said it for hearing to come back and make sure she's doing what she's supposed to do. We came back and she brought her literacy coach with her. She read out of her book. She had everybody in the courtroom crying. There wasn't a dry eye there. That's the impact that you can have.
The ripple effect of that is huge within the family, their connections, and their community. You make such a big difference to one person and it's amazing. For humanity and confidence in themselves, how many other things that might unlock for someone? Thank you so much for sharing that story. That was touching.
There are 1,000 more stories out there. We don’t have time to go over all of them.
Judge Rita Gruber from the Arkansas Court of Appeals, thank you so much for sharing at least a small bit of your stories, wisdom, advice, and all of that with us on the show.
Thank you so much for letting me be a guest. It's been a real honor to be part of this project and encourage young people, especially young females who are trying to decide what they want to do with their life. Hopefully, this will be a time for them to think about some of the options that they have and where they go. Is this right for me?
Thank you so much again.
You're very welcome.