Snell & Wilmer partner

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Denise Dragoo, Snell & Wilmer partner, shares her trailblazing path in environmental and natural resources law. Denise shares her incredible journey, from being on the Governor's policy team to becoming an equity partner at Snell & Wilmer. Along the way, she talks about the importance of mentoring, community service, and provides invaluable tips for building a successful law practice. Tune in on our engaging conversation with Denice Dragoo as she shares her wealth of experience and insights.

Relevant episode links:

Denise Dragoo, A Gentleman in Moscow, Rules of Civility, The Lincoln Highway, Angle of Repose, Molly Dwyer – Past episode, Dinners with Ruth

About Denise Dragoo:

Denise Dragoo is a Partner at Snell & Wilmer in Salt Lake City, Utah. Her practice focuses on natural resources, coal law, water law, environmental law, mining law, public land law, issues affecting the oil and gas industry, mine safety and health law.

On this episode, I’m very pleased to have joined us one of my former law partners, an amazing woman lawyer, and partner at Snell & Wilmer, Denise Dragoo. She has a very interesting practice in Resources Law, Environmental, Mining, and all kinds of different things. I’m so pleased to have you here, Denise.

MC, thank you for having me.

We have not had anyone with your diverse and interesting practice area before, so I’m excited to have you talk about that for folks who might not even know you could do, let's say, Mining Law. Also, you are such a great supporter of new lawyers, training and mentoring people. You are terrific at that and have been recognized for that too. I’d like to talk about that a little bit about how you managed to do that and any tips for those who are newer and might want some tips in navigating the law firm landscape. I wanted to talk first about how it was that you decided to go to law school and wanted to become a lawyer, to begin with.

I grew up in Colorado, in Colorado Springs and my parents lived on the Gold Camp Road, which is the old railroad bed that comes from Cripple Creek, Colorado. That's where the gold rush started. The gold ore would be transported down to Colorado Springs to the Golden Cycle Mill. We were living on Gold Camp Road and we spent lots of holidays in Cripple Creek and checking out the history there, which was fun.

Ultimately, I noticed at the end of the road is the Golden Cycle Mill and nothing grew on that hill yet. The gold mines were developed in the 1800s and there was a technique there called dredging and a lot of rock that was torn up. That rock is still there. It's amazing, right next to the creeks and streams. Of course, this was old technology that they don't use anymore, but you could see how the environment had been impacted by mining over time. I think that affected me.

When I went to college, I was interested in history because of living in the West, and I specialized in American history. I realized that maybe there might be a career here in Environmental Law. I chose the University of Utah because they had an excellent professor at that time who was very good in Environmental Law. During my first year as a 1L, I got to go to Washington, DC, and work for the Environmental Protection Agency and which was in 1975. That was way back, almost before most Environmental Law.

That was fun. After that, in the second year, I got to go to the general regional council's office in Denver and worked for the EPA regional council's office. I was hooked and got a Master's of Law in Environmental Law at Washington University when I graduated. I worked in Washington, DC, for the Environmental Law Institute and then made the transition back. I met my husband and we moved back to Utah and there wasn't a lot of Environmental Law. There was an Environmental Law practice because, once again, I predated most of the Environmental Law.

I worked for Governor Matheson and that was my big exposure to mining and the mining industry. I had a chance to write Utah Coal Mining Reclamation Act and then helped the state lobby it through. The Mining Reclamation Act was focused on reclaiming surface coal mines and underground coal mines. It was fun because it brought the stakeholders for both environmental groups and then also the mining industry.

The State of Utah wanted to assume primacy and primary regulatory authority. I got to work with the state and put the program and rules together. I think probably because of the governor's office had some exposure, so I was recruited by the law firm of Fabian & Clendenin at that time. I went into private practice and there you go. That's how I started.

What is so interesting to me is I hadn't realized the personal history. You are like, “Yes, I grew up down the street from a gold mine.” That fits with where you ended up going in the law. That’s one of the most interesting intersections of different experiences leading to a specialty practice area that I have heard of. I didn’t know that.

The other thing that's interesting about your story is talking about trailblazing. There were a lot of trailblazing women lawyers and judges who have been on the show, but you are in a unique niche among trailblazers because you are talking about trailblazing, an area of the law even, something that was developing along as you developed as a lawyer.

Having that interest and seeing that opportunity, I think there are things for people to learn about that there may be developing areas of the law now that have not fully blossomed that law students or new lawyers should consider. Your story shows you don't shy away from it. It may not be fully developed, but you could be part of that development, which would be exciting,

When I went into the private practice, my first group of clients knocking on my door was for the mining industry and that's not necessarily a woman-dominated industry. Here come the mining industry folks and they need permits and they said, “Do you know anything about this Coal Mining Reclamation Act? I said, “Yes, I do.”

In developing areas, it seems like that happens because you are going to be in policy and regulation, to begin with. Having that government policy work in the area where you are like, “You want to know about that statute? I might know a little bit about it because I was involved in drafting that.” That's definitely a path I have seen for those who are in Space Law, for example, where they are involved with the agencies that do regulations and then end up working with private companies or private clients afterward because they have that inside knowledge of working on the policy.

There are so many opportunities right now. The Biden administration has brought in a lot of interesting ESG programs, and environmental and social governance programs. That's an opportunity for people to develop an edge for women in particular. Develop that expertise. Right now, with all these new laws, the Biden administration has two huge of the Infrastructure bill and the Inflation Reduction Act, which I don't think reduced inflation. At any rate, those two bills were enacted and there's lots of money on the table available for public partnerships. I would encourage people to brush up on those rules and have that in your little niche area. At least in my world, that seems to be a very popular and very needed niche.

That's a good transition from being so integral to the policy work and then, as a result, being called upon as a private practitioner to help companies navigate that legislation. Although I think there's something before that, that's interesting when you said, “It's a nascent developing area.” Firms wouldn't necessarily be thinking about that as something where we need someone in this area, which we haven't even fully recognized yet as an area.

It's the way you took that in stride. You are like, “There wasn't anything there, but I looked around, I broadened my view and I was like, ‘This looks interesting.’” Doing policy work in this area is one way to go. I think sometimes that's a necessity that we broaden our view because that's what's available. On the other hand, I think there's a good lesson in that, too, in not being too focused on one particular channel and thinking about other ways to get to where you want to go.

It was so fun working with the governor's energy office and Governor Matheson. He was also an attorney and worked for the Indian Pacific Railroad. He had a lot of interesting natural resources background and served as a mentor. I guess nobody knew what I was doing, so I got to do whatever I wanted to in the office. I thought, “This bill looks interesting,” or would go here and there to work with water rights and the different natural resources agencies. Maybe that's a good way to go to try to take advantage of the opportunity that it presents to you. Governor Matheson and his wife Norma turned out to be lifelong friends and supporters. It doesn't hurt to have a governor pitching you.

It doesn't hurt to have a governor pitching you.

That's a good twist on that. That's right. Also, good friends to have and good mentors too.

He was very helpful and very patient. I think I probably put some gray hairs on his head.

That's a good segue. I was going to ask you about mentoring and mentors that you have had in your career. You mentioned Governor Matheson and I think about that in terms of wanting. Everyone, especially newer lawyers, are told, “You need a mentor.” Everyone's like, “What does that look like? How do I get one of those and how does that work? What is mentoring or sponsorship? How can I be a good mentee?”

There's a back-and-forth in that relationship that's important as well. You are a good mentor for others as well, in turn. The best way you can do it when you have been mentored by others is to pay it forward and do the same for other lawyers. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that, both being a good mentor and having good mentors yourself.

I think it's so important. At the time that I was with the governor's office, there weren't a lot of women in private practice, but I think the governor's office was a high-profile position and it, so you wanted to do a good job. That's important to keep an especially high-profile mentor. You don't want to get them in too much trouble.

You want to help them look good.

I think picking the right person, too, is someone who's open to helping to open doors and promote you and not just take credit for what you have done and that thing. It's important to choose the right person. What sometimes happens to women in private practice that I have seen is that they are very focused on doing good and helping the person right above them. Sometimes the person right above them is trying to get their billable hours in and is not focused on trying to promote that person. Suddenly you have worked and worked for 4 or 5 years and you don't necessarily have a practice. What helps in a private practice realm is to have that book of business. You have to have to choose your mentor wisely and you choose someone who's generous with their time and also has good skills.

I think there are different things. Some people have mentors for life whom they have worked with and they are a mentor in so many different ways. Other people can have mentors for certain things. It may not be lifelong, but they are mentoring them through a certain part of their career or into a particular position where they have the influence to help someone get hired or get hired by a client too in private practice. There are a number of different ways to think about mentoring. Sometimes people think of a mentor for all seasons and sometimes that's not the case but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable.

The other thing I was thinking of was when you said selecting your mentor within the firm, that's good advice because somebody might be good at helping you build your skills because they are excellent at what they do and you learn from watching them and working with them. The second piece of that is do they care about you and your development beyond the particular project you are working on with them. Are they looking longer term for you? Do they have that vision and want to help you succeed beyond doing great work on their client's work?

Here at Snell & Wilmer, we have got a couple of different programs. We reenacted the diversity internship and so we reached out to a 1L first-year lawyer or first-year law student and let them intern. We don't want them to flunk out. We will have them spend 5 to 10 hours a week at the firm, maybe shadowing folks, and doing projects. Obviously, they can't practice law but they can do a lot of research projects and then just hang out.

We have got that going. It's going to be a mining engineer student who's also a first-year lawyer and is a diversity student first in her family to go to graduate for college and also a Hispanic. She's brilliant, a mining engineer, and is interested in Patent Law as well. My goodness. Hopefully, we won't disabuse her too much.

I was going to say, hopefully, you will encourage her at that end.

We are encouraging the 1Ls and that's a long way to go, I have to say, to make it through graduation. As you were indicating, we needed a mentor for different seasons. That is perhaps a unique mentor at that stage. As you go along, we have a group now focusing on the other end, the equity partners. We have a group of equity partners who are dedicated to giving more equity to women partners at Snell. We have got a group that we are choosing the ones that have got the best prospects under the criteria of the firm and then we are trying to encourage them and get them support and get them out on the edge there. Some folks need that little nudge. We running the whole spectrum here, but it's fun.

I’m so glad to hear about that equity partner initiative. I have seen at various firms where that's not discussed in a partnership of whatever level. Yes, there are efforts to have more women in partnerships, but it's the equity partner level that can persist at a low percentage of women, and that needle needs to be moved and supported in being moved. It's tied into the 1L and associate pipeline question because more and more newer lawyers now. They say how many women are seniors in a particular place.

If they don't see a lot of them, they begin to wonder whether that's a good place for them and can we succeed to our utmost here or not. Are we supported in doing that and encouraged to do that? I’m so pleased to hear about the equity partner piece of it because that isn't something that a lot of firms are focusing on formally in programs while individual partners might be doing. I would suspect that Barb Dawson might be having something to do with that. That seems like a Barb Dawson vision as she moves into the managing partner role. She's a treasure at Snell & Wilmer and a treasure in women lawyers.

We are excited to have her head and then she's encouraging more women to come into equity partnerships. I think there's a pipeline there and you have to encourage it, but it starts at the top.

Also, I think the key to that is recognizing the potential. I’m not sure that according to traditional criteria that some women who truly have that potential as senior council or non-equity partner. Maybe there are different ways and different talents that they have that might not be recognized in a traditional way or traditional setting in terms of client development. If you, again, open your eyes a little bit and think outside the box about the different ways that people can do that, you might see more women with potential.

Just by identifying women that might give them a little nudge and encouragement. Sometimes women are too modest, too humble, and don't think of themselves as an equity partner. They need maybe some encouragement to get more invested and that little nudge sometimes is what you need.

Sometimes women are too modest, too humble and don't think of themselves as an equity partner. They need some encouragement to get more invested.

That's true in so many ways. That's one of the original impetus that I had for the show. It was thinking sometimes women don't even consider applying for the bench, but they get a little nudge to do that and then they apply. You can't have more diversity on the bench if you don't have more diverse applicants to begin with and for people to think about it and have that a-ha moment like, “Maybe that could be me too.” I think that's the same with the partnership of having someone tap you on the shoulder and say, “You have something. You have potential,” which can be enough of a nudge to move forward.

You are one of the partners with substantial business and very loyal clients. I’m wondering if you have any tips in particular on that, on working with clients, managing client relationships, and developing business. Maybe you can provide some tips for others who might be thinking about how they can become an equity partner as well.

As I indicated, my entree was not that well planned, but I had the opportunity to write this law and it turned out that was a law that in terms of permitting what people needed. That certainly helped and it helped me learn the industry and that's important with respect to clients. To know the industry so that you can speak to what your client's needs are better. That means that you should get out. It's helpful to get out and join trade associations as well as bar associations.

American Bar Association is good. It opens doors for the environment committee of the ABA and that was very helpful because the ABA is both government and private practitioners. You get a chance to know government as well as private practitioners. That's important when you are knocking on the door for your clients. It's helpful to know the regulators as well as the industry. I think listening to your client is important, making sure that you are providing them what they need, not what you think they need.

That policy work, I was thinking that's an interesting part. I was thinking one way of looking at your policy work was, “I helped write that law, which we are now interpreting.” You have the substantive knowledge of a new statute and a new area, but you also had to understand the business and the industry and have discussions with people in the industry in order to work in the policy office. You also had that industry understanding and connections together with the substantive knowledge. I think that the magic of putting together, “I know a lot about this, I know a lot about the law, the substantive law,” but then also understanding as you said, the industry and the needs.

I think that's where maybe joining trade associations is helpful. If you have got an area, say you are interested in oil and gas, the petroleum association might be a good area. The Rocky Mountain Mineral Law Foundation, which is now called The Foundation, provides a lot of good academic background and a lot of opportunities for town and gown-type interactions. You get the academics that do Mineral Law, Water Law, and Environmental Law.

That's more in the thought leadership category too.

I think that's helpful to get involved in both trade associations and academia, those associations and foundations that will provide that background because then you can continue to learn. This isn't ever-changing. Every time you open the federal registry, talk about ever-changing. You have to stay on top of it.

Every time you open the federal registry, it’s ever-changing. You have to stay on top of it.

I was going to say, you have got to stay on top of the developments because when you are talking about regulation, that changes all the time.

Those trade associations are helpful to keep you informed. A lot of times, it means stepping out of the door of your office and getting involved, and taking people to lunch. I think that's one thing that maybe there's such a temptation, especially these days. You can work remotely, you are so comfortable, but you do need to get out. Especially now that there's that extra. Remote is great. It provides some extra flexibility, but don't forget that you need to get out to lunch and get out to some meetings and you can use the remote to catch up later.

There's great flexibility from it, which is a positive, but whether you are remote or not, that concept of more than the people you are working with day-to-day on the cases and what I call your hallway when the law firm needs to know you. If just the people in your hallway know you, that's not enough. You need to get out and be known by others so that people can say, “I have this environmental issue or I have an issue with a regulator.” “I know whom to call. I have met her. I like her. I have worked with her on bar things. I trust her judgment.” Even if it wasn't a substantive legal matter, somebody they know and feel comfortable with in terms of referring their client.

The pandemic was interesting. Everybody found out they could take their laptop home and they could work remotely. As I said, that's so convenient, but you do need to come in back into the law firm too, for some face-to-face mentorship. There's also schedule lunch or schedule a time to meet your mentor or mentee, but make sure it happens because it's too easy to take that laptop home and curl up on the couch.

Some days that's fine. Some days that's good to have some concentration time, but you need a mix.

We need to be flexible. I do think it's helpful. I try to get in every day. I’m a little more flexible about my hours. I think probably the mentor and mentee can work out a schedule for lunch for a meeting or I’m going to be here Tuesdays and Thursdays from 2:00 to 4:00 or something. I think it can be worked out, but we have to focus on that.

I think that's particularly something that newer attorneys would benefit from considering because a lot of that informal mentoring and relationship development that naturally happens being literally physically down the hall from someone didn't happen in during the pandemic. People need to catch up to make sure that they have that mentorship and training. It can maybe require a little bit more proactivity now in a way of scheduling when you are in the office and saying, “Are you also in the office? I would love to have coffee,” or something like that instead of having it be maybe a spontaneous as it used to be. If you happen to walk into someone's office and start talking to them, it may not be as easy to do that. Still, think about that and being more proactive in reaching out to people within the firm just like you are reaching out to people outside the firm.

Utah State Bar also has a formal program which was started by Supreme Court Justice Christine Durham for helping maybe more the solos, those folks that are starting out. It's new lawyer training. For a whole year, you have to do an apprenticeship. Every attorney, that young attorney who passes the bar that first year has to have a mentor, and then the mentor and the mentee work through things like, “There's a separate fund for clients, for trust funds, for the client's money, and for retainers.”

Setting up some of the basics because there were so many problems. The Utah Supreme Court here in Utah governs our ethics and professionalism and there have been so many problems with, especially I think folks that don't have that training hang their shingle out and then don't realize that they can't write a check on their trust account to take care of the rent. A lot of problems like that. Maybe it’s ignorance and not realizing the way things are supposed to work.

There's a whole year's training and there's a program you go through for ethics, law firm management, and client development. It's great and I think it's beneficial for everybody because it's a good reminder to the mentor, too, and the mentee benefits from that. They get through a new lawyer training certificate and they can go off as a full-fledged attorney. That's helpful.

I like that question about the give-and-take between the mentor and the mentee too. Through the mentoring, the mentor might be keeping up on things and learning things themselves and also learning some things from the mentee, whether it's technology or other things that might be developing, keeping up on new things in the law.

The other thing is enthusiasm. You get some of those younger folks and they are so enthusiastic, you are thinking, “Was I ever that enthusiastic?” That energy is great. I get a little boost of energy from their enthusiasm and interest in the law and you think, “That's why I went to law school.”

It invigorates you. It reminds you of that and seeing that fresh energy, it's a good check-in too. If you still can't dig deep and find that joy in what you are doing, you could reevaluate and say, “Maybe I should be doing something else.” As long as you can still find it working with them and it takes a little spark to reignite it, I guess that's a good reminder that you are still where you need to be.

What advice would you give, especially to newer women lawyers? You have given some advice in terms of getting involved in industry associations and things like that, but for those who are not in the serendipitous situation that you were in terms of writing an entirely new law and all of that, what advice would you give to those who might be interested in Environmental Law, Mining Law, or things like that in terms of finding out whether they like it?

I know that some people, Environmental Law, it's pretty technical and sometimes people have an image of what it is and then once they get into it, they are like, “It might not be my cup of tea.” I know about that. First, finding out and making sure that what you think it is, it is, and that you are doing it, and then developing that expertise and becoming known for that.

It helps. You have to be successful in private practice you have to have a book of business. To have a book of business, you have to have something to sell. It has to be your expertise. You have to be an excellent lawyer and you don't get that overnight. I think it helps to have coming in as a young lawyer getting what are you interested in and getting as many attorney assignments as possible in those areas that you think you are interested in. Hopefully, finding a mentor. If not, a lot of firms have got good programs for training to check that out. I think both the state bar associations and then the American Bar Associations got great committees and great training programs and opportunities. Why not go to some nice conference and check it out?

In that advice, there are two parts of it, which I think sometimes people think of as being, it's either this or that, but what you are saying is it's and it's both of them. You need to be a skilled attorney and very knowledgeable in the area that you are practicing in. You have to be good or you should be good. The second part of it is being good in itself. If nobody knows you or nobody knows that you are good isn't enough. If you want to build a book of business, you also need to be known for developing relationships. That's the part where you are saying get out, go to the bar associations. Speak whatever it is so that you can be integrated into that practice area and people so you come to mind when an opportunity comes up.

Take advantage of the training that the firms offer. I know our firm offers a lot of different training and think, once again, the mentor can be helpful in that regard in terms of directing you. You don't have to have one. If you have got a different interest, try a different mentor, a different area. I think you have to be open. Sometimes, the other thing is a certain area of law will close. That practice area is no longer practical. You will have to be flexible and use the skills you have learned in one area to retool and try something different.

Take advantage of the training that the firms offer.

That's one of the things. Things are always moving. New things are developing and other things are receding too.

I think of that. Sometimes the commercial finance groups have to retool and then they end up in bankruptcy workouts. It's amazing, though, as we are in the ups and downs of the economy, you don't know where sometimes, but usually research skills, advocacy skills, and analytical skills, those are pretty transferrable to other places in other practices.

They are transferrable in so many ways. I think that's another aspiration I have for the show of seeing the different ways that translate. It doesn't even mean that it's law practice. It could be so many other areas, whether it's becoming a writer or leading a nonprofit or leading legal nonprofit, or like our friend Noelle starting a legal tech company. There are so many different ways to use critical thinking, analytical training, and the ability to communicate. Whether it's in writing or advocating persuasively. All of those are good skills that translate to even areas outside the law.

Those skills are also helpful for community involvement. That's another good way to get out. It helps your practice, but it also helps you and it helps the community and those skills of being a lawyer and organizational skills, analytic skills, how can you put together a nonprofit corporation. All those skills are helpful to the community and not everybody's got them. It's nice to be able to share those skills and it's amazing where that leads you.

I’m so glad that you mentioned that because one of my joys is serving on nonprofit boards. It can open your eyes. You think, “What can I add? I don’t know what I can add to this, but I’m happy to add what I can.” What you find very often repeatedly is that there are great business people or arts-oriented people or philanthropists who might be on board, but then the lawyers have a different way of looking at things.

We can break down problems and questions and short circuit problems to identify, “Here’s what’s going on. Here are the core things we need to address as a board in order to move forward.” Every time that happens, I’m gratified to think, “I’m contributing something to the board.” It also helps you identify, “Maybe we have something special from our legal training in how we identify and address problem-solving.”

I worked with the Legal Aid Society and they were working on domestic violence and getting protective orders. I knew that I wanted to help, but I knew that I was worried that I would affect someone's life if I wasn't able to respond quickly and get a protective order. I got my checkbook out instead. Helped the Legal Aid Society with that as it turned out. I did end up on the board and we realized that what they needed were more checks, also some ability to train people.

I worked with the Bar Association and with the Legal Aid Society, and we have helped form this community legal center. We got Disability Law, the Legal Aid Society, and Utah Legal Services all together in one big building. We went to the law firms. We used to depend on things like IOLTA, which is good. This is a little bit of money, but that's nothing. With this partnership, all of a sudden, there was a lot of interest in it. The community came together and we started having breakfast and fundraisers and suddenly, they had building, they were all together, services were consolidated, and something happened that was good.

That has its own impact or ripple effect from doing that.

It was very gratifying to see that come together. Even though I couldn't go get a protective order, writing the check worked out okay in the end.

Recognizing there was that need and how it would help move the organizations and the organization's work forward. You need different people with different skills and different visions all along. I often think about that in volunteer and community work. I’m always thinking about what's my highest and best use in this arena. How can I have the most impact on my time and my skills? I think being selective about that where you can provide the most assistance and recognizing that about yourself, and what you can add to the equation to make a difference is important. It’s part of maturity, understanding your strengths and skills, and what you can add to a situation.

When in doubt, get the checkbook out.

That's true about boards. In large part, it's either can you bring or raise money or what can you do with your time in some other way, whether it's lending advice on the board or things like that. Time and money are the two quantifiers that the community boards are looking at.

That's another way to reach out to the community as well. Similarly, there are opportunities there perhaps for mentoring, maybe more formalized as you go up the officers from secretary to vice president to president, but there are opportunities for maybe more formal mentoring there.

Developing skills from that, leading the board, and all of that. That's a whole bunch of different strategic skills and working with people and moving the organization's goals forward. All of that is a whole other set of what they would call soft skills on top of the substantive skills that can be helpful in your practice as well. Developing as a person.

As you said, thinking beyond the law and beyond the bar associations and even the industry groups, doing things that you are passionate about, things that you are invested in and that you think can make a difference. People respond to that when you are engaged and you are passionate about the work that you are doing, whether it's community work, bar work, or your work in practice.

Thinking beyond the law and the bar work, but to community efforts that will expose you to a range of different types of people, but also stretch your skillset in a way that is positive and contributes to the community at large. That's a big thing. I remember from Snell & Wilmer too. There's ethos has a lot to do with community leaders and service in addition to legal practice.

That returns to you in so many ways. It makes you feel good for one thing and you are helping the community. The community needs our skills and we should be willing to spend some time investing in our communities and it always pays back.

You don't do it for that reason. You do it for contributing, but it's neat. It's neat to also be part of the larger fabric of your community and to be able to have an impact in that way, it gives you more ownership and a good feeling overall. Denise, thank you so much for sitting down, chatting, and sharing your thoughts, especially on mentoring, skill building, and developing a practice. I appreciate it. I admire you a lot. You have a great sense of humor on top of being very skilled at what you do. I’m glad to have the opportunity to chat with you about everything. Usually, before I close, I ask a few lightning-round questions. Are you ready for the lightning round?

Sure. I will try.

What skill would you like to have but don't have?

I would love to be an artist. It would be wonderful to be artistic.

I always put that in the category of there are artists and creators and then you need people to appreciate the art. I put myself in that category. I’m the art appreciator.

Me too. There's a checkbook again.

Who are your favorite writers?

Whomever I’m reading right now. Amor Towles, he's got A Gentleman in Moscow and Rules of Civility. He's got a new one that I’m reading, The Lincoln Highway, which is fun. He's fun. There are a lot of interesting writers in the West, Wallace Stegner particularly. We have a whole center devoted to him, Angle of Repose. He's got some interesting books. In a book club, we are reading some of his Western.

I usually ask most guests about this. Molly Dwyer, who's the Clerk of Court for the Ninth Circuit. She mentioned Wallace Stegner's Angle of Repose and the writing in it and all of that, also.

The history of the West is so interesting, especially now with the climate in the Colorado River Wars and all of those things. That's always interesting. I have been enjoying Nina Totenberg’s Dinners with Ruth. It’s fun to think of Ruth Bader Ginsburg as a person, as a friend. That's been fun.

Those are interesting. I always get some new ideas about what to read. We read a lot already, but it's good to get some good recommendations. Who is your hero in real life?

Rosa Parks. At least the retelling of what Rosa Parks did, the whole concept of being able to stand up against all of that discrimination and the bravery moving up to the front of the bus. That started a whole movement. I think Rosa Parks and that simple act of defiance, which sounds simple, but must have been huge in her world. Rosa Parks is my hero.

There's a good analogy to that of standing up for yourself and claiming your space. In a lot of ways, that is a good thing for a lot of women lawyers to think about, especially the newer ones right now. What in life do you feel most grateful?

I think for my family. My mother was a fifth-grade teacher, and so there was no getting out of grammar and all those things. That was great.

Did you have to diagram sentences?

Yes. I had to diagram sentences. Flashcards and all those things. I guess behind every good student, there's a fifth-grade teacher, but so she was great. My dad was always taking us up to Cripple Creek or someplace like that. At one time in his life, he was a tour guide on a tour bus in Colorado. We used to go to all the places that he'd been to. I got a real sense of the history of Colorado from him. That was fun. My husband, whom I met in law school, and we both have enjoyed parallel careers. I say I’m a bad person. He's the head of the environmental division at the Utah Attorney General's Office. I’m in private practice, but we are yin and yang. All of those folks have great influences on my life.

You have a great husband. I think that is funny about the collectively or contributing to all sides of the Environmental Law in Utah. We will go back to maybe Nina Totenberg’s book a little bit here. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? It could be more than one person and it could be at any time. They don't even need to be here now if there's someone historical person.

You guessed that Ruth Bader Ginsburg. It would be so interesting to hear her views now on Roe v. Wade and all of those things. It'd be fun to have her and the Dalai Lama and then maybe Volodymyr Zelenskyy. I think now those three and a dinner party would be interesting, don't you think?

It would be very interesting. The selection, when you have a group instead of one person for your dinner party, sometimes the group creates its own dynamic. There would be some interesting cross-discussions.

The Dalai Lama, he's in the same category as Volodymyr Zelenskyy in terms of taking on the incredible odds and so far prevailing in their own way.

That's an interesting combination. That would yield some good dinner discussions.

That would be exciting. Volodymyr Zelenskyy, what an interesting person to go from being a standup comedian to being the inspiring leader of Ukraine. He is very inspirational. He's great at promoting his cause and getting funding from other countries. He's an interesting dynamic person. The Dalai Lama on the spiritual front. To have that challenge and to be kicked out of his country and still have to be the religious leader of his group. He's an amazing, humble, and inspirational person as well. He could do grace.

Last question. What is your motto if you have one?

My motto is just, “Hang in there.” If you work hard and find a good mentor and keep working at it. One of these days, things will work out for you, but you have to hang in there. That's my motto.

One of these days, things will work out for you, but you have to hang in there.

I think that's a good way to close. Also, I like the humility in that of just hanging in there. There's persistence and all of that. You are very unassuming and humble about things, but you are an amazing person, a real powerhouse, and a trailblazer. I’m so glad that you shared some of your journeys and shared your motto because I like that. We can hang in there. Hang in there one more day. Hang in there for one more challenge and keep moving forward one step at a time.

Thank you. This has been fun.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for joining.