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In this episode, we explore the law school clinic experience and the role it can play in growing law students' skills and accelerating their careers in a conversation with Tina Kuang, Sydney Wong, and Molly Okamura, three graduates of Loyola Law School of Los Angeles' Ninth Circuit Clinic, each of whom with their law school teammates briefed, argued, and won immigration appeals before the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals under the supervision of host M.C. Sungaila.

This episode also reflects a collaboration between the Portia Project and the Personal Jurisdiction podcast to provide insights into law school clinic, judicial externship, and judicial clerkship experiences.

Relevant episode links:

Tina Kuang – LinkedIn, Sydney Wong – LinkedIn, Molly Okamura – LinkedIn, Greines, Martin, Stein & Richland, Jackson Lewis, Newmeyer Dillion, The Silent Patient, The Book Thief, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo Series

About Tina Kuang:

Tina Kuang is an Associate at appellate law firm Greines, Martin, Stein & Richland LLP (GMSR), where she works on a wide variety of civil appeals, writ petitions, and post-trial motions. She began her legal career as GMSR’s first Appellate Fellow after graduating from Loyola Law School, Los Angeles in 2021. She gained extensive appellate experience during her time at Loyola, including externing for Justice John L. Segal at the California Court of Appeal, working as a law clerk for GMSR, and briefing, arguing, and winning a Ninth Circuit immigration appeal in the Ninth Circuit Appellate Clinic with former AmLaw 150 appellate group leader, adjunct law professor, and host of this podcast MC Sungaila. The case resulted in a published opinion.

About Sydney Wong:

Sydney Wong is an associate in the Los Angeles, California, office of Jackson Lewis P.C. Sydney works with corporate clients of various sizes and industries in preparing and filing both nonimmigrant and immigrant visa petitions that allow foreign national employees to obtain work authorization in the United States.

During law school, Sydney served as a note and comment editor of the Loyola of Los Angeles Entertainment Law Review. As a member of Loyola’s Ninth Circuit Appellate Clinic, Sydney briefed and argued an asylum case before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit. Sydney was also a judicial extern for the Honorable Ronald S.W. Lew of the U.S. District Court for the Central District of California.

About Molly Okamura:

Molly Okamura is a recent graduate from Loyola Law School. She grew up in Sonoma County, CA and attended Loyola Marymount University for college where she studied Communication Studies and Public Relations. After college, she worked as a commercial litigation legal assistant at an international law firm in Los Angeles. During law school, she was an editor for the Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review, a writing tutor for 1Ls, and participated in Loyola's Ninth Circuit Appellate Advocacy Clinic. She will start work in Fall 2023 at Newmeyer Dillion in Newport Beach, CA.

I'm excited to have members of the next generation on the show. They are three law students at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, who were all part of the Ninth Circuit Appellate Clinic, the clinic program at the law school. They are now in various stages of their careers following law school. We have Tina Kuang, Sydney Wong, and Molly Okamura, all from various iterations of the Ninth Circuit Clinic at Loyola Law School. Welcome.

Thank you for having us.

I'm excited to have all of you. You were great students and did a great job arguing before the Ninth Circuit in each of your cases and got great results for your clients. I thought it would be helpful, interesting, and a good resource for current law students to consider clinic experience, taking a clinic, maybe even in an area they're not sure they want to practice in, but the value of that to even an early career and skill-building.

I want to start out first with Tina because you're the most experienced on the panel. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions first. Maybe you can tell us where you are now and what you're doing, how that relates or doesn't relate to the clinic, then give us some sense of what brought you to law school, to begin with.

I'm an Appellate Attorney at GMSR, Greines, Martin, Stein & Richland. That wasn't my initial plan, going into law school at all. I don't even think I knew about appeals. I decided to go because I was an English Major in undergrad, and I hadn't figured out my post-grad plans yet. At the time, my parents were involved in a messy divorce.

My mom's divorce attorney was super cool, and she was super kind and great at communicating with my mom. Even though my mom didn't speak English very well. That brought me to law school. I was looking at what she was doing. I was like, “Maybe I could help someone.” It was interesting. It was interesting to me for sure, but I don't think I knew what I had in store until I showed up and started participating in law school things.

That problem-solving or helping people solve problems certainly resonates with the guests. Those who are on the bench sometimes say the same thing. That's what brought them to law school, wanting to help people and having a personal experience like that with a lawyer who did a great job or was empathetic or the opposite. A lawyer who didn't do a great job and recognized that it's important in vulnerable situations to have a good lawyer, and I'd like to be one of those to help someone. Sydney, where are you now, and what brought you to law school?

Thank you for having me. I am a first-year Associate at Jackson Lewis in Los Angeles. Jackson Lewis is primarily a labor and employment firm, but I work in the business immigration group. My day-to-day is mostly work visas. I went to law school because I was a Political Science Major in college. It's a very typical path, but I knew that I wanted to continue my education and go to grad school. I just didn't know which one.

After graduating from undergrad, I took a year to work in a law firm to see if it was a setting that I felt comfortable with and interested in the work, and I did. I ended up applying to law school, and then went through it. I didn't think I would end up in immigration law, but that's very typical for many law students to start out wanting to do one thing and then end up in another.

It’s very typical for many law students to start out wanting to do one thing and then end up in another.

There was a good overlap in your experience or interest in immigration law. It is very helpful in the clinic, at least in the subject matter area of the appeals. Molly, where are you planning to go? You just finished the bar. Other than your bar trip, what drew you to law school?

I'll be starting in the fall at Newmeyer Dillion, a firm in Newport Beach. I'm also in Orange County Local, like you, MC. When I was an undergrad, I originally thought I wanted to do journalism because I've always enjoyed reading, writing, and researching. I ended up taking a couple of journalism-related classes. I had an internship at a regional magazine as an undergrad. I didn't feel particularly challenged by the work. Unfortunately, journalism is not necessarily a dying industry, but people don't dig into news articles and that kind of stuff as much as they used to. People get their news from headlines and Twitter feeds. I wanted to do something where my writing was going to serve more of a purpose.

Around that time, I had some professors randomly suggest that I should consider law school because I always enjoyed persuasive writing, in particular. It piqued my interest. I ended up interning at a small personal injury firm one summer in college, and I loved it. I thought the work was interesting. I loved how even though I was a very small piece of the puzzle, I felt like I was contributing towards helping people. After college, I was a legal assistant for two years at a larger firm in LA and loved it. From there, I applied to law school.

Tina and Molly, thinking about the experience, you're getting the experience in that setting to see if it's something that you're interested in. Not a lot of people do that. Sydney, you are also very conscientious in thinking about those things and being organized about them. What it's like may be very different from school. School may be one way, but what it means to do it is something else. 

Molly, when you're thinking about the journalist part, you're like, "It sounds cool, but in reality, as I found out, there's not a lot of Woodward and Bernstein anymore. It's a different era. If that's what I'm interested in, maybe I need to look somewhere else and where I can apply those skills." All of those are good, thoughtful advice about deciding what you want to do in a career. 

Tied into the practical leanings that you've all described is the clinic experience. We'll be talking about the Ninth Circuit Clinic in particular, but clinics, in general, have seen a great surge or resurgence within law schools as being a practical method to gain some skills, represent real clients and help them, and get those skills before you graduate law school.

I wish clinics were just starting when I was in law school. I was in one of the few clinics that existed, but that has greatly changed, particularly in the last decade, with a variety of the kinds of clinics you can serve in and that you can get practical skills in, and bring it to the practice from the very beginning. It's competitive, so you got selected too into the Ninth Circuit Clinic. How did you decide that was something you were interested in seeking out as an experience in law school, particularly that clinic? How did the clinic or the experience vary from what you thought it was going to be when you first got into it? I'll start with Sydney on this one.

I initially looked into clinics because Loyola does have an experiential credit requirement. They advertise them towards the end of the year. During my 1L year, I did a landlord-tenant clinic in the fall, which was interesting but I didn't get as much hands-on experience as I'd hoped for because there was an eviction moratorium going on at the time. The clinic was not very active at all. There was some work but not much.

I did a judicial externship during the spring, and that was in the Central District. During that time, we watched a few oral arguments in the Ninth Circuit. I thought it'd be interesting to get some experience at the next level, and not just in the Central District. I applied during the spring because I loved my externship experience so much. I was fortunate enough to get selected.

What surprised me was how quickly this particular case moved. I know that sometimes these cases can take a long time to even be heard in the courts and whatnot. MC would tell us, “Once you file your brief in the spring, the oral argument comes up very quickly.” I didn't believe that. I thought, “We'll prep a few weeks before it, but there's going to be a nice little break in between.” There wasn't. That preparation during that time was necessary. I believe in that timeline being like you have to start prepping earlier or else you're not going to be ready.

That's interesting. I said, “What else are we going to do this semester? There's a lot to do.” That's great training for preparing when you're in practice. What you mentioned, Sydney, about the timing is from the kindness of the court to do that. If you were in a typical case, it wouldn't be as fast necessarily that the court is interested in helping you all get the most you can out of the experience. It's not like you brief it and then leave, and somebody else argues the appeal. You get to do the whole thing and see the whole thing from the start of the briefing to the oral argument, and waiting for the opinion. That is something that we're grateful to the Ninth Circuit for doing. Tina, what are your thoughts on this?

I basically started getting interested in appeals because the summer after my first year of law school, I externed at the Court of Appeal. That was my first experience with it, but it was very interesting. I got to help write opinions. I enjoyed the reading, writing, and research aspect. After that, I took Appellate Advocacy at Loyola and I enjoyed that as well. I ended up being a law clerk at my current law firm, GMSR. I got a ton of appellate experience before the clinic. When I saw the clinic, I knew that I had to apply and I luckily was able to get in. It was a great experience for me.

At that point, I probably had a good idea of what a life cycle of a case would be but I still think it's very different to go through it than to just know about it. It was very interesting being able to go through the entire process. Even from the beginning, like reviewing the record and stuff, being able to do that, it's like the stuff I do now. Getting that hands-on experience before graduating was great, especially with oral argument. That was one of the most memorable experiences in law school for me, at least.

It's pretty amazing. That's another thing that the court is very lovely about. They decide whether they take the argument in a case. For all of the student cases, they say, “Yes, you get arguments.” It's an amazing opportunity for you all. I think it’s so helpful as a leg up in your careers. For you, Tina, going to an appellate firm and going in when you start to say, “I've already argued an appeal to the Ninth Circuit,” would make it much easier for me to suggest to a client that you argue an appeal for them earlier than maybe somebody else. You can say, “This isn't her first appeal. She’s argued before.” To me, it makes it easier for others to give you more opportunities faster if you're working hard. We know you'll do a good job but being able to say, “This isn't her first rodeo,” was very helpful. Molly, what about you in the clinic?

Similar to Sydney and Tina, I wanted to fulfill the experiential requirement that Loyola has. Loyola also requires a pro bono requirement for graduating. I knew I had to check those off and wanted to do something that was going to be impactful and interesting. I had taken appellate advocacy in my second year of law school and loved it. During my first year and second year, I enjoyed more practical courses like legal research and writing. I was enjoying the law review.

I thought during my 3rd year, having participated in a clinic to get some of that practical experience, then also checking off those core requirements would make for a much more exciting third year than just taking doctrinal classes. What surprised me most about the clinic was how the students were very involved but even in terms of arguments and strategy, MC and Professor Kelman were very open to hearing our ideas and our thoughts on arguments that we were suggesting, and what we thought the best strategy choices would be. I found that to be the most surprising part of participating in the clinic. I would suggest to younger law students that they do a clinic for sure if they have the opportunity to.

That's interesting. That's what your colleague, Robert, had mentioned too. We get to see the whole life cycle. We get to see the whole thing of the particular appeal but also, we're involved in decision-making more than just pieces of the case or pieces of the appeal. We're thinking about a larger strategy. We're looking at the bigger picture of the case, which is a whole other way and a whole other skill to train, which you need to grow as a lawyer and to become a great litigator in particular, but in all settings. That is a unique piece of this particular clinic, but also of clinics that you can carry an arc with. It’s that you're involved in that.

You're not just doing the pieces of something. You're doing that too, but you're also thinking about the bigger picture. Especially in this case, you're going to go up and argue. You need to know everything down and you are the representative of the case and the client in that setting. You need to understand how everything fits together and have that strategy, including how you respond to questions from the bench and things like that. That's a great way of describing it saying, “We had a strategy.”

It's funny when you said that, Molly. You're like, “I was surprised about that.” I'm like, “Really?” As you were saying it, I was like, “That's right because, in most settings, you wouldn't have that.” You're like, “Here's the piece of something to research. Come back with the answer.” Maybe somebody will tell you how that fits into everything later. You can't operate that way when you're representing the clients in the clinics.

I want to talk about the argument portion too because that is uniquely scary in some way when you're up there arguing, even the night before. It's such an amazing opportunity as a student to argue a real case in front of the members of the Ninth Circuit who, as we talked about before, getting on here is that they're deciding cases. They need to treat you as a true advocate from whom they need answers. While they might be polite in asking those questions, they're not going to be surface oriented or lighthearted about what they need to know. It's a very serious situation.

As a student, having never done that before, I'm curious about maybe your thoughts about that when you were doing it if you can go back, and if it hasn't completely been blocked out of your mind. Afterward, how you felt having done that because I have a sense that it does give you a certain amount of confidence having done that, and in all of your cases, having done a great job at it, also ended up getting great results for your clients too. There's that upside part but standing in front of the Ninth Circuit to argue a case is a law student, I don't know. Molly, this is most recent for you, so I'm going to ask you how you felt about it and what you thought about that experience.

I still can't believe that it happened. That's my first impression. It's an experience that I can't compare to anything else. MC, I remember we went out to lunch after our argument, and thinking two years prior, around the same time, I was doing my 1L year oral arguments over Zoom with an alumni attorney pretending to be a judge. Going from that to actually arguing a real case in person in front of the Ninth Circuit was pretty crazy. I think the confidence boost afterward, I felt like I can go into practice feeling like I have experience and feeling more confident in my oral advocacy abilities. It was an amazing experience for sure.

Sydney, what about your experience before and after?

Unlike Molly, I did not get first-year oral arguments. They were canceled because of COVID. This was truly my first oral argument of consequence in any sense. I was very nervous leading up to it, but I do think all the moots that we did prior were helpful. I had seen Tina's oral argument as this example because we also had an overlap in one of the same judges.

We were using that to help prepare us for how he would react to us as law students because it was very clear that he did not care that we were law students. He was going to treat us like attorneys. The preparation was extremely helpful. The actual oral argument went by so quickly that I also felt similarly to Molly, where I felt like I can't believe that's happened and we're done already.

It was a positive experience for me. I felt like I had a great support system in MC and my partner Zach Johnson at the time. I'm proud. That's one of my biggest accomplishments thus far in my very short career. Although I don't do any oral advocacy now, I feel confident that if I need to do it, which I'm sure at some point will come up, that I have the ability to do it and do it well.

The skills from condensing something very complex down to something very bite-size and persuasive are good skills to have, no matter what you're doing. Even if you're negotiating on your visas or things like that, Sydney. The other part of it too is you had great teamwork and collaboration with your partner on the case, and so did Molly and Tina.

There's something about learning to work together with someone in a super productive way that's not in a mock moot court setting but in a real case. It is good training as well for working on teams on cases or matters when you get out of law school. Tina, you were a role model in your argument and presentation. How did it feel? What did you think afterward?

It's very funny because I wouldn't consider myself a strong public speaker at all. I was very nervous going in, but I'm one of those people that's like, “I am terrified but I have to do it anyway.” As Sydney alluded to, I had some questions that I wasn't prepared for in the sense of they were very abrupt questions. It wasn't the stuff we were practicing during moots and stuff, but because we'd had gone over everything and I was very prepared in every aspect, even though there were questions I wasn't expecting, I was able to get through them pretty well. Ultimately, what I learned from that oral argument is to always be prepared.

That's right because you had a solid foundation to go from even if there were some wild card questions that we were like, “We wouldn't have thought of that.” You had so much strategy and so much work in other ways that you had a foundation about how to answer those questions. That comes from preparation.

I felt like anticipating every question but more so knowing the record and all the arguments well enough to adapt no matter what came my way. I was very grateful that we had spent so much time preparing and covering everything. By the time all these unforeseen things were happening, we were prepared.

You were taking that breath for a moment, then go, "Here's the best answer for that.” I also think you want to present your best argument. If you peak too soon, that argument could be before the actual argument. There's this constant balancing of when are you at that optimal point of very prepared but not so prepared that you go into, I don't want to say rote, but you want to still be engaged and have that fire about the case.

You have to bridge that a little bit so that you can come out with those answers as you did, instead of just going through it because you're so familiar with it because you've prepared so much. They’re somewhere in between setting for that. Your colleagues as a law clerk at Greines were so helpful in also participating in some of the moot court preparation, which was nice. I gave them some ownership in your development and watched how you did at that argument when they were helping you to prepare.

I'm so grateful that everyone in my firm was so willing to help and pitch in. We did the argument in the GMSR studios. It was great.

Molly got to present in person. Tina and Sydney, it was COVID, so you had to do a remote Zoom argument, which is different. I would hope that in the future, it's in person because that's a different experience, especially for your first argument. It was nice that things were still moving along anyway and able to have an argument at all, given all of the COVID restrictions and everything.

I want to cover a couple of more things with regard to the clinic. The one thing I wanted to talk about was for Tina and Sydney, how that experience has continued to resonate over your early careers. We talked a little bit about some of the discrete ways that have happened. I'm wondering, looking back, are there other net positives from doing the clinic? Tina, you've had more time. I'll ask you first about that.

For me, especially, what I'm doing right now is tied to what I did in the clinic. It was helpful going through the entire stages of a case and knowing what to do. Now, that's what I do. I review the record. I write the briefs and I haven't done oral argument yet, but I have done moots and stuff. It's having the confidence to know that I've done this before. Now that I'm in practice, I can do it again and again. It was very helpful. Also, having a leg up and already doing oral argument already and knowing I can do it is very helpful for me in what I'm doing now.

Having taken the case, especially if you're going into appellate work afterward, having taken a case from the briefing through argument, even if you're not arguing all of the cases after that, you can see the brief differently. You make decisions differently because you've seen this overarching arc of a case all the way through the argument, and you had to present the argument. That will impact how you do the brief, to begin with, in a case.

I wasn't initially planning on being an appellate lawyer after law school because it was very hard to get into. I lucked out being where I am now. Even if I were to go be a trial lawyer or do litigation, the skills that I had during the clinic, reading, writing, and oral advocacy would've been very helpful in that regard too.

I would say the same. Reading and writing are a big part of what I do. Brushing up on those skills and learning different ways of arguing things is helpful. Since I'm not litigating and I'm doing the appeals process, and immigration is very different, the clinic taught me to think about what I put on the record in the first place. If we look back at the record when we started our appeal, I was like, “This area here was lacking and I wish we had something in this area.” In an appeal, it’s too late. You can't provide that information at that time.

In preparing the petitions that I do now, I'm very cognizant of, “Am I providing everything I can and ticking off all the boxes?” If not, I might not have the chance to bring that up later if it existed. The client's not going to be very happy if that could have been done from the outset. That's a valuable skill that I learned from the clinic.

That's so interesting. I think about that in terms of it being great for trial lawyers or litigators to have that understanding. You're creating a record and what does that look like on appeal, but you're talking about something even earlier than that because it's important in immigration. Even in the appeals, we're looking back to the original petition or applications, original statements before there's any actual immigration court challenge.

That's a good point. There's value in a lot of different ways but that's so interesting that you took that away from that. Sydney, you're like, “If it had said that, we'd be in a better situation,” which is true. Everybody likes to see consistency. You've consistently presented things and said the same thing, especially in the immigration setting, where folks are often looking very hard at credibility. If things are consistent all across, then that takes one brick out of the wall of somebody saying you weren't credible because you said something different at different times. Good observation.

My second question for everyone would be, what kind of advice would you give to a law student who either was deciding which clinic to take? Now that you've been through the clinic, is there something you would say, “I wish I'd known X,” or something pragmatic and helpful for someone who's wondering whether they should do a clinic? Maybe they do have a clinic requirement. They don't have to wonder about that. They have to wonder which clinic they should take. This is your opportunity to drop a pearl of wisdom for a student making a decision on which one they're going to take. Molly, what do you think about that?

I would say pick a subject matter that you're interested in. Not as obviously, Robert and I talked about this during the fall semester. Plan your schedule accordingly. If you're doing a clinic that's very research and writing-heavy, maybe don't take an appellate advocacy class at the same time or a class where you're going to have a research paper or something like that. If it's a year-long clinic, gauge how many units you are going to get each semester, and what classes you want to take to balance things out both semesters. That's what I would suggest taking into consideration.

That's good advice, especially where it is very writing-heavy. There are a lot of drafts. There are a lot more drafts back and forth than you might anticipate when you first come into the clinic. That would be a lot to do the opening brief and reply brief and some other brief in between or a big writing assignment. That'd be tough to juggle. All right, Sydney?

I agree with Molly, spot on. I did take appellate advocacy at the same time I was in the clinic. I was writing two briefs at once, which was pretty challenging.

Sydney's like, “Don't do what I did.”

For sure, plan out your schedule. To some extent too, the clinics are a good opportunity to maybe dip your tone in an area of law that you might be interested in but aren't so certain. You only have a limited amount of time before you have to go out and into practice and find a real full-time job. For me, landlord-tenant was something that I was like, “Maybe, but I don't know if I could see myself doing this full-time.' At least, they gave me the chance to do it and then make the decision for myself whether or not it was for me.

That's another great benefit to it. It's a corollary to you all working in firms and seeing how law practice looks from the inside. It's the same thing here. Maybe we'll check out what it looks like to do this and represent someone in this setting. Another thing is that even if it's an area or a subject area that you're not necessarily going to go into, diversifying your experience by doing something different is helpful.

Also, there may be something about the clinic process-wise that's interesting even if it isn't the subject matter. It might be a substantive area but what you get to do is something you haven't done a lot of or would like to learn. That's another good method of selecting a clinic because you're practically skill-building through the clinics. Thinking about, “What am I going to do in this clinic?” Tina, in your case, you were very focused on that question in selecting your clinic. You're like, “I would like to go into this area. This is great. It's a great experience.” Maybe your advice might be a little bit different.

I did another clinic before the Ninth Circuit Clinic. It was an employment retaliation clinic where we investigated the claims. It was completely different. My advice would be to see what the clinic involves and what you would be doing for the clinic. My two clinic experiences were completely different. I'm grateful for both, but they weren't the same at all.

I'm thinking about comparing it to an innocence project clinic or something. Depending on where that is at in the case. You could either be working on drafting a habeas petition or you could be helping with the investigation and the factual part. Those are two different things. The same clinic but a totally different experience because of what task is happening at that point.

I like your very practical advice like, “Make sure you're not doing too much of the same thing all in the same semester.” Very good. That's good. Sometimes, Sydney, the credits are where they are. The opening is when it is and there you go. I remember that. Sometimes you're like, “I'm learning that now or I'm getting to that now.” It’s not for the faint of heart to do both at the same time, but reinforcing the other as you're going along. That was good.

Thank you all for joining and sharing your experiences and insights into selecting a clinic and what the experience is like for those who may be at that decision point themselves about whether they do a clinic or which clinic they would like to do. I'll have to plug it. Please consider an appellate clinic or a Ninth Circuit Clinic, any variety of that, because it's such an amazing experience.

Consider an appellate clinic or a Ninth Circuit clinic, any variety of that, because it’s just such an amazing experience.

I wish that they had that when I was in school because it is so unique to be able to have taken a case to that level and argue before the court even before you've taken the bar exam. It's amazing and all of you stepped up to the plate. It's great to have the experiences, but you have to step up to get the most out of those experiences and to learn the most from them.

You're also representing a person and individual depending on you to do the very best job you can to help them out in a very serious situation. There's that fine line between taking responsibility but not being too freaked out by the responsibility that you have and keeping that balance. All of you did a great job in that regard. I'm so excited to see where you all go next. It's going to be good, I know. Usually, I end with a few lightning-round fun questions. This one I'm going to learn new things about you all from this too. I'm going to start with Tina. Which talent would you like to have but don't?

I would like to speak every language. That's what I would like to do.

That's a good one. I haven't heard that one before. Sydney?

That's such a good one. That's hard to follow up. I like to always be able to balance my efficiency and my accuracy. That's mostly it.

Molly, which talent would you like to have but don't?

Those are both good. I would say to be a good singer or dancer. Something artistic like that. My whole family is very artistic, and I got 110% of the left brain. I always think doing something artsy would be fun.

On the one hand, what a broad-ranging experience being in your family is. On the other hand, you're like, “Which does not match the others? That would be me.” Who are your favorite writers? I'm going to start with Sydney on this one.

I might need some time to think about that.

She's going to pass. I know Tina has favorite writers. We'll start with her.

It's funny. I don't read as much as I'd like to for fun and pleasure anymore, but I started getting back into reading. I started reading The Silent Patient by Alex Michaelides. That's what I've been reading. My favorite book prior to that is probably The Book Thief. I can't remember the last name, but that was my favorite book growing up.

That's a good one. That's one of the things in law school. You drop by the wayside while you're in school, especially the first couple of years. You're like, “I can't read anything else. It's so hard.” What you said about coming back to being able to read other things is the marker that you're re reaching some level of comfort with whatever it is that you're reading like, “I have some brain left to enjoy the creative reading and the fun reading.” You've reached that point again, Tina, where you're able to have brain space to read that.

I was someone who used to read under the covers with my little flashlight, so it's time to get back into it.

Molly?

The Book Thief is one of my favorite books too, Tina. That's a good one. One of my goals for being fresh off the bar exam is to spend the next few months reading because I also haven't gotten to read for pleasure as much as I would like in law school. One of my favorites is J.K. Rowling. I'm a big Harry Potter person. I want to reread the Harry Potter books. I read them when I was a kid, but I want to read them again over the next couple of months. One of the main reasons why I'm going to the UK is because I want to do all the Harry Potter sightseeing. I would say she's my favorite.

That's awesome. That's so fun. You'll be able to trace the steps and all of that stuff. It’s very fun. Sydney, any books? We gave you some time.

J.K. Rowling was also a favorite. I did read all the Harry Potter books. The day that they would come out, my dad would pick them up from the grocery store, and I'd read them. I also enjoyed The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo Series, which is by Stieg Larsson. I'd have to say he's one of my favorites.

That's another good one. That's a little edgy one there, Sydney. Who is your hero in real life? Basically, someone you know. Not just someone you've heard of. Molly?

I would say my mom. She is one of the most hardworking people I know. She's had a few different career changes and pivots throughout her professional life. That's been inspiring to be able to witness.

That's great both from the career side and being your mom. That's very cool. It's neat to see that my dad went back to graduate school when I was young, just a couple of years old. That stuck with me in terms of when you said like career pivot things. He was doing certain work. Basically, I like it, but I'm not fulfilled by it.

It wasn't what I thought it was going to be in practice. I went back to school to pivot, as you said. It always gave me permission, having known that happened like, "If I make a choice and it turns out I don't like it. After a few years, I could do something else." My dad did it with a family and a small child. I could do that. If I didn't have that situation, I could change. It gives you freedom and not total fear about your decisions like, "If I do this, it's here for my whole life." You can opt out if it turns out to not work.

My mom has always been very good at reminding me of that. I think it's super courageous when older people who have established careers are willing to take those kinds of risks.

Also, it's in certain values about why you're doing something like making your choices. Having a sense of meaning in what you're doing is so important. It can be so important that you would switch entirely if you didn't feel that you were contributing in the way you wanted to in one setting. Sydney, your hero?

My hero would be my maternal grandmother. She has also faced a lot of adversity in her life. She was widowed pretty young and had some face difficulties with my mom moving to the United States. She was by herself in Japan. She eventually moved here, and she played a big role in raising my brother and me. Throughout it all, she moved here at an older age and didn't speak any English, but she still, throughout her entire lifetime, made a strong effort to learn the language and the culture. Even through all the struggles, she was always kind and patient. That's something that I aspire to be, even though in our practices, things get stressful. It's very easy to get frustrated. I try to embody that mindset and personality as much as I can.

That's a great inspiration. As you said, it takes a whole bunch of courage to come to a place you don't know at all and certainly the language. Tina, your hero?

Mine would also be my mom but for very similar reasons as Sydney's grandma. She also came to a place where she didn't know the language. She's been through a lot, but she's always been so cheerful and bright. She always sees the best in people. I admire her a lot for all of that.

It's nice to come through challenges like that and not be cynical. It's nice to see you retain who you are. If you were kind before, you're kind afterwards despite challenges. That's great. Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? Tina?

That's hard.

They could be here or not. They could be with us or not with us or a mixture.

My best friend from high school passed away around the time we graduated high school. I would want to see her again. I want to have dinner with her again.

That's nice. Sydney?

This might sound silly but I'm interested in having dinner with Kim Kardashian because I am very curious about what she is doing in her legal practice now and her path to becoming a lawyer, which is not a very traditional one. Also, she does run a very successful business. I would like to pick her mind and see what she's like behind closed doors and not on TV.

Although it seems like they live their lives entirely in public, it's not true. There are other elements that go on, I'm sure, that aren't in front of the camera. She is a great business person. Also, her mom would be interesting because she is the one that's helped build the empire. She would be an interesting business mind to talk to. What I think is interesting about Kim Kardashian is she is taking an unconventional path to be a lawyer, the harder path in many ways.

Even before that, leveraging her influence and authority and other venues to make a difference for those who need advocacy in the legal realm. She has done a lot. You all argued before the Ninth Circuit before you graduated law school, but Kim Kardashian is getting people released from prison and helping get congressional statutes passed and things like that. That's pretty cool for starting law school. It would be interesting to see what she does once she is able to practice as well. Molly, what about your dinner party folks?

Going off, I mentioned how much I love Harry Potter. I think J.K. Rowling would be an amazing person to pick her brain about how she came up with everything. That's the first person that comes to mind.

You're going to be in her neck of the woods.

Maybe we'll cross paths in that high T or something like that.

That's so cool. Last question. What is your motto if you have one? I'm going to start with you, Tina.

Something I say a lot would be it is what it is in the sense that sometimes there are things that are out of your control and you have to either deal with it or adapt.

That's good because otherwise, there are things that are in your control and things that aren't. Sometimes the things that aren't in your control are not great, but you have to deal with it like you said.

It is what it is.

Sydney?

Mine is very similar. Don't sweat what you can't control. It's something that I have to practice still, even though it is my motto. I don't always adhere to it. Because there are so many moving pieces in law and also in life, I am trying hard to embrace that motto fully.

I hear you, Sydney. Sometimes, you have a motto because it reminds you of the mindset that would be helpful. It may not be your most natural mindset, but it's a good reminder to get there. Molly, do you have a motto?

I don't know if I have a motto but something my mom has always told me that maybe I should make it my motto is “A diamond is a rock under pressure.” It is a good reminder to lean into those uncomfortable, risky moments and know that those are where you learn and grow, and I think the Ninth Circuit Clinic was one of those, I could say.

A diamond is a rock under pressure. Lean into those uncomfortable risky moments and know that those are really where you learn and grow.

I saw all of you grow in that. Particularly, there were a couple of moments where I saw you, Molly, and I was like, “Way to go.” I saw you stepping up and going out a little bit further than you had before, and you did great. I saw some of those more conscious moments when you were doing that. It's great to have that reminder.

My mom used to send me notes like that with various quotes and things like that when I was starting my practice. It was nice to have that thought like, “It happens, but it's okay.” If there's suffering, there's growth. It's all good. We’ll come out on the other end of this, even if it's tough. It's the opportunity to become the best that you can be. Looking at it that way gives you a little different perspective than, “This is a pretty horrible time.”

That's a great reminder and motto as well. Thank you all once again for joining the show and sharing your insights. I'm so pleased to be able to share them with others who would benefit from them. Also, have people get acquainted with you because you're all going to be making a difference in your own way in the profession. I look forward to seeing what you all do next.

Thanks so much for having us.

Thank you, and have a great trip, Molly.

I will.