Aarti Holla-Maini

Judge
Written By Third Boxcar LLC

00:41:52
 

Watch Full Interview

 

Show Notes

As part of our continuing series on Space, Aarti Holla-Maini, the Director of the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA) joins the podcast to share her journey from solicitor training to attending business school and entering the aerospace industry, growing and leading the Global Satellite Industry Association, and now leading UNOOSA. Along the way, she discusses the importance of meditation and knowing your own strengths and purpose, as well as the importance of authenticity in leading others.

 
 

About Aarti Holla-Maini

Aarti Holla-Maini is Director of the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs (UNOOSA) in Vienna.

UNOOSA works to promote international cooperation in the peaceful use and exploration of space, and in the utilisation of space science and technology for sustainable economic and social development.

Ms. Holla-Maini brings to this position over 25 years of professional experience in the space sector including in managerial and advocacy functions. Most recently, she has held the role of Executive Vice-President Sustainability, Policy & Impact at NorthStar Earth & Space; prior to which she spent over 18 years as Secretary-General of the Global Satellite Operators Association.

Ms. Holla-Maini’s experience includes service as a member of the World Economic Forum's Global Future Council on Space; member of the Advisory Group of the Space Sustainability Rating managed by eSpace at the École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL) Space Center; member of the Advisory Board of the Satellite Industry Association of India; Senior Space Policy Adviser to Forum Europe and as Expert Adviser on Space Traffic Management for European Union studies 2021-2023. She was also one of the chief architects of the Crisis Connectivity Charter established in 2015 for emergency telecommunications via satellite with the UN World Food Program’s Emergency Telecommunications Cluster.

Ms. Holla-Maini holds a bachelor’s degree in law with German law from Kings College London, UK, a master’s degree in business administration from HEC Paris, France, and she is also an alumna of the International Space University. She is fluent in English, French, German and Punjabi and has moderate knowledge of Dutch.

 

Transcript

Welcome to the show where we chronicle women's journeys to the bench, bar, and beyond and seek to inspire the next generation of women lawyers and women law students. I'm very pleased to have a special meeting and a special episode in our Space Series, interviewing the Director of the United Nations Office of Outer Space Affairs, Aarti Holla-Maini.

‐‐‐

Welcome.

Thank you. It’s nice to be here.

UNOOSA And Directors’ Role

Thank you so much for hosting us and having me here in your office in Vienna. I wanted to start with this first because there are some people who know about space who tune in to this and other people who might like to know about space or pursue some career in it after they know about what it involves. You're the director of UNOOSA. Can you give a little background on what that means, what UNOOSA does, and what you do as director?

Sure. UNOOSA is the only part of the UN that has a mandate entirely dedicated to the peaceful uses of outer space. It’s the United Nations’ space office. It was established back in 1957 before perhaps many of your audience were born and before I was born as a tiny expert unit in New York. It was set up to service what was then an ad hoc committee of very few spacefaring nations or nations who were going to become spacefaring nations to discuss the peaceful governance of space.

Meanwhile, we serve as a committee, which is no longer ad hoc. It's permanent. It's no longer made of only 15 or 18 member states like it was back then. It now has 104. We accompany the journey of that committee as they produce space governance and also as they make decisions on how to leverage the transformative power of space in the service of member states’ priorities and needs, so the sustainable development goals. As an office, we, on the one hand, are secretariat and conveners of the member states in that forum. We are also a gateway between space technology data and services on the one hand and the needs of member states on the other.

Many countries have no clue that space solutions exist and that they can use satellite communications or satellite imagery for different applications. Many of them have heard of it but don’t know. They’re like, “How do we get this imagery? What do we need to do?” When I worked for the satellite operators, everybody said, “We would like to have teleeducation in our country,” or, “We would like these e-health solutions. Who do we call? Do we call a satellite operator?” You don't. That's not how it works.

It's not obvious to many policymakers how they can benefit from space solutions. That is the other part of our mandate. It’s not just being the secretariat. It is the gateway and also the capacity-building role. We not only help member states have access to space solutions, but we train them how to use them. We give countries data and we'll teach them how to interpret that data. Satellite imagery, for example.

On the legal side, you also have the project for the new space actors and trying to help them form their national laws on space too.

We have a line of 60 countries who are waiting for technical advisory missions from the office to put their first space law and policy into place. It might be their first one. It might be an update. That's a service that this office provides. We don't do it alone. It's a tiny office of 25 people. We couldn't fulfill our mandate without partnerships and cooperation.

There are many space lawyers in the world. There's great expertise. Whether we think about remote sensing and earth observation or whether we think about space law, many countries have this expertise residing within academia, NGOs, and industry. When we do these missions, we fly out. We send two experts from the office and we have a bunch of other experts who voluntarily work with us during a tailor-made mission of around a week.

Michelle Hanlon and Ruth Pritchard-Kelly were part of one of those efforts.

Sometimes, we benefit from legends in the space sector who support our work. We're very grateful for that.

I was thinking that's a beautiful use of pro bono work for space lawyers. There are not many opportunities to do that. That's certainly one of them. That's really neat.

It's a win-win for everybody. We don't have the resources, but we have access to the expertise. First, they're very generous, but oftentimes, they're chuffed to be working with the United Nations on such a project.

UNOOSA's Role In Convening Space Stakeholders

How exciting. I was thinking, “What a neat thing.” Many people in space law are curious people. They're very curious. They always want to learn and be part of helping others learn. It seems like a really good fit for those to help. Another thing that is important too is this convening role that the United Nations can have and that your organization has for all of the various stakeholders in space.

There are a lot more. Way back in the beginning, there were only a few nations who were planning to be spacefaring. Now, we have several more who are, several more who would like to be, and several more who would have a need to have these national space laws because they want to be part of space. There are many more private commercial companies that are coming into the mix. How did the United Nations and your office convene all of those various stakeholders and provide us a spot for all of them to have conversations or discussions with each other?

It's important to know that many of the member states who are members of the committee COPUOS, the Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space, are not necessarily spacefaring. You don't need to have a space agency, a satellite, or any kind of space program to be a member and have your voice heard. Let me give you an example. I came to this office a few years ago. I was new to the industry. I wanted to hear from member states what expectations they had of this office.

Many of them came and talked to us about their national needs. The Middle Asian countries, for example, said, “Water is a big problem for us. The Aral Sea is drying up. The Dead Sea is shrinking.” The issue of water management is a big issue. African countries came and they said healthcare but also agriculture is such a big issue. We had others who talked about disaster relief because they might be small island developing states. They're constantly being battered. We had others who talked about sea level rise.

The diversity in national needs was so big, but the one thing that they all said was a priority for them was space sustainability. That was quite surprising for me. You expect it to be the spacefaring nation, the ones who have assets in space, who are going to care about that, but even those who have no assets but who talk to you about water management, agriculture, or food security, they also talk to us about space sustainability.

The common thread across all of the 90 or so member states that I had bilaterals with was space sustainability. That tells you that people realize that space is important for the SDGs and for national or regional objectives. As a convener, it's not difficult to convene when people know that they rely on space to some extent or another. They may not understand the whole portfolio of what space has to offer. It doesn't matter. They know what their national need is and they know that they have a connection in some way. Storytelling is the enabler of convening, and it works.

Aarti’s Career Path

That's interesting. You're right. Nations have needs and concerns on Earth and space can help with a lot of those and recognizing that. That's really neat. I wanted to talk a little bit about your background and how you came to this position, how you came to law, and a little bit about you as well. How did you decide to study law and become a lawyer? What were you interested in doing? Did you have something in mind that probably wasn't space when you went to law school?

I did law as a compromise because I wanted to study languages. The only things I felt I was good at in school were French and German. I wanted to study languages but my parents told me that I would wind up as a bilingual secretary. They insisted that I study something professional. I remember sitting and flicking through what is known as UCAS in the UK. In the UK, we used to have a little pocketbook. It had every single university in the country with every single degree that was offered. It was like a menu.

I saw law with French law and law with German law. I thought that could be a compromise because I knew I wasn't scientific. All of that gamut of professions was not for me. I didn't know anything. I picked this and thought my parents would be happy and I could focus on the bits I liked. I applied for law with German law because I thought, “Everybody speaks French. Let me go for German to be a little bit different.” That's how I got into law.

I studied law with German law. I spent a year in Germany doing a diploma in German civil law. I'm a qualified solicitor in the UK. You have to do two years of training. I was training with a firm that had 80% German-speaking clients. Everybody in that firm, all the trainees, had done law with German law or just law but they spoke fluent German. That's what happened.

I then left to do an MBA. I found law pretty boring. I liked the acting part, so I liked going to court. I never did big litigation. I was a trainee solicitor, but I liked making applications or applying for extensions of proceedings. A little bit of prancing around the royal courts of justice on the strand in London was nice. I like the intellectual challenge sometimes, especially around litigation. What I have retained from my very short period of legalistic work are analytical skills, public speaking skills, persistence, and the drive that if you want to make your case or win your case, you need to convince and persuade. It’s the storytelling piece of it.

There's so much that's translatable from the legal training to so many other roles. Some of the women we've featured on the show have had that where they lead nonprofits. They do many things. They see how all of those skills translate really well and give them their superpower and what they're doing. It sounds like from your story that your interest in languages and different laws works very well for the United Nations, so that's good, ultimately. You can apply that here. You get to do a lot of public speaking and a lot of things like that. You have some of the show from the solicitor a little bit too much. You didn't come here directly. You left the solicitor role. Where did you go after that?

I did an MBA. Before the school made me the offer, they called me and said, “We advise you to think twice before accepting it because you're one of the people with the least work experience.” Most people go to MBA when they have 6, 7, or 8 years of work experience. I had qualified as a trainee solicitor, so I worked for two years and then I went to do an MBA.

They said, “We really fear that you might be one of the people who's waiting the longest to find a job afterward, so think carefully before you accept the offer.” It was not stupid advice, but it put the fear of God in me. I was not going to stay with the law firm. I had applied. They were making me an offer. I'd already decided that this was my trajectory. I went there and I took it. I thought, “I'll take my chances.”

We started the MBA in September. In October, there was a German fair at the university on the outskirts of Paris where German companies were coming to town. Anybody who had their CV in German could submit it and you would see if you got called for an interview. I was called for an interview by Mercedes-Benz and Daimler-Benz Aerospace. I'd never heard of Daimler-Benz Aerospace. They invited me for an assessment center, which I went to in Munich.

At that time, when you did an MBA, either you were the finance type or you were the consulting type. I was really bad at math so I knew I was not the finance type. I assumed I was the consulting type. I knew that to get into the consultancies, they ran assessment centers. I thought, “I'm being invited to Munich by Daimler-Benz AeroSpace for an assessment center. Let me go and do that because that'll be good practice for whatever consulting I go into afterward.” That never happened. That was three days of exercises and psychoanalysis while we did teamwork and I don't know what. It was good fun.

I realized for the first time that I have a competitive streak in me and that I have a mind that is curious and wants to learn. I was really excited to see Military aircraft, helicopters, satellites, and all the things that Daimler-Benz Aerospace did. By the end of day three, I wanted an offer and I got an offer. I was the first person in my MBA year to get an offer. It was for a corporate young manager program for high potential. They thought that they wanted me. Since I had been told I was never going to get a job, I took it. I ended up in the space sector because I thought I'd never get a job anywhere else, so here we are.

That's amazing.

It's quite different because a lot of people who work in space are fascinated by space. They've always wanted to work in space. They wanted to be astronauts or something like that. They used to look into the sky when they were young and loved the stars. I used to like lying in my garden and looking at the sky but it wasn't a fascination with space. It was peaceful.

That's amazing. Sometimes, things happen. You start going down a different path you hadn't imagined but you find things about it that are interesting. You're like, “This is interesting.” You said you're curious and you like to learn different things. That was one of them. That's so cool. I like the competitive thing. I like how you said you discovered you were competitive. I was like, “I can see that.”

I didn't know I was competitive either. Everyone's like, “How could you not know that?” I remember I was taking crew rowing. We would have races at the end of every session. The coach would lie to me to tell me that somebody was ahead of me and they weren't. I would be so much further ahead of them. I was like, “That cannot be the truth that they were.” He's like, “You're competitive. If I told you that, you’d do better. You’d go faster.” I was like, “I didn't know that.” He's like, “It's pretty obvious.” It's neat when people can see things in you that you don't see. You're like, “That would be helpful to be competitive and do your best.”

The competitive thing comes out when you know that you are good at something or that you can see that this is something which you might be good at, or you might really want. I was a captain of our school badminton team when I was young, I wasn't competitive, but that was because we were not very good and we never won anything. We did it for fun, which has its own value. When you know that you have a chance to do something, improve something, and achieve something, that's when your competitive streak can help you achieve it.

When you know you have a chance to improve or achieve something, that’s when your competitors can help you achieve it.

It keeps you driving forward to accomplish that and keep moving. That's true. You fell into aerospace, and then you've had really interesting positions with the Global Satellite Operator’s Association and also with another company. You have an interesting background coming here, bringing all of that background to your role.

I went from Daimler-Benz AeroSpace, which meanwhile is called Airbus. It was Daimler-Benz AeroSpace, and then it was EADS and Astrium through the European integration process. They streamlined and then became Airbus. They sent me from Munich to Brussels to be the German representative in a European joint venture company called Galileo Industries.

I was in Brussels as the German representative in this European joint venture. I did that for four years before being called back to Munich because they were shutting down the Brussels office. Meanwhile, I was married and my husband worked at the European Commission so there was no question about me going back to Munich. I had to look for a new job.

By complete coincidence, in the same office building on the same floor was the Secretary General of the European Satellite Operator’s Association. We had a common friend who was in between his office and my office who was a guy who worked for Finmeccanica. He introduced us and told me, “The secretary general is leaving. You should be applying for his job.” I did that and I got it. I became the SG of what was then the European Satellite Operator’s Association. That was the longest job I had. I was there for eighteen and a half years.

From 2004 when I joined, we expanded. We went from having 8 operators in 2004 to having 22 in 2014 when we expanded to become the EMEA Satellite Operators Association. 8 years later in 2022, we expanded again to become the Global Satellite Operator’s Association. We had 30 satellite operators as our members. GSOA has continued to expand since then.

I no longer needed to get out of bed anymore to leave a legacy. I've taken the association from Europe to EMEA to global. We have done tremendous things, including the integration of satellites into non-terrestrial networks and then into terrestrial networks through the 3GPP framework for 5G standardization, which is what we see with direct-to-device connectivity. As an association, we moved mountains. It was me plus one other lawyer woman, Natalia Vicente. Between the two of us, we ran the world’s association for satellite operators.

Leadership And Legal Training

That's amazing. How fun. What a great time to be there at the leading growth and expansion like that. It’s always exciting. Tell me a little bit about leadership. You are a great leader. How do you think your legal training has contributed to that ability to lead? What do you think makes a good leader?

I know that I have leadership qualities. I don't know if I'm a good leader yet. In coming to this office, it was the first time that I managed a larger team.

That's true. That's a big difference.

I had to manage one young person and I managed large groups of members in working groups. That is not who you have to lead. It's different to lead an association and lead a team that has common interests than being a boss. I had to learn, and I'm still on a very steep learning curve, of how to be a boss. That kind of leadership is different from the leadership of the office in a global context.

That's a very good distinction.

I've had a massive penny-drop moment in leading this team. I realized that what I say and how I say it matters so much more when you have multiple people who look up to you, who want recognition from you, who would like to impress you, and who work for you. What you say and how you say it really matters. You can't chitchat in a way that you may have done before.

When you're a leader, people hang on every word that you say or how you say it and if you smile at them and if you don't smile at them. It matters. That's a real responsibility because you can make someone's day and you can destroy someone's day. You motivate them or you demotivate them. I thought that I learned that by coming here, and maybe I did a disservice to my previous employee by not recognizing that even though we were only two people. Maybe I should have recognized that more and I didn't. I've recognized it now.

You're like, “I see how this impacts things.”

I'm apologizing in this show to my former employee for not having been a better boss. It took me to have to lead a larger team to realize that. As individuals, whether we are leaders or not, we need to realize that and be more responsible in how we interact with our fellow human beings. It matters even more when you're a leader.

That's an important distinction between the team that's in your immediate sphere and direct reporting as opposed to the outside consortium as you had at the association and as you have with all of the member states and the various convenings that you're doing. You have a lot of experience in that part of it, but then there's a new part that you're learning. That's always good. You should be growing and learning new things in different places.

We stop learning when we die, and until that moment, we learn. People should like it. I like learning. I love learning. I'm constantly learning.

Impact Of Business Training

Also, getting new skills and all of that. It's nice. You are doing everything with some growth in it. How has your MBA or business degree impacted how you think about issues or how you think about work? Having a law degree is one perspective we talked about. What about the business training?

I didn't understand much of my MBA at all. I will be brutally honest. That was the worst year of my life. I found it extremely difficult. Statistics, finance, and even strategy. It had all of these things. I did not have a creative mind, which is something where I've probably had the greatest growth personally. I did not know how to think independently even when I was a lawyer, which contributed to my not enjoying it, and I did not have a creative mind. I really struggled through the MBA.

When I worked for Daimler-Benz AeroSpace, I was working in a business. It may have been in business development or in strategy roles, which are more mental and less commercial. You could see things. I saw things that then took my mind back to, “I remember this from my MBA.” Even though I hadn't understood it in my MBA, I would have flashbacks of things that came from then. I've learned more from my MBA after it than I did during it.

The application of things and seeing things in the real world.

I appreciated it more directly in my last role before joining the UN, which was with NorthStar when I was on the executive committee of this SME or startup SME. What I did directly impacted the success or failure of the business. It was a small company. I was playing an important role in the government liaison scene. That was really important for the business success or not of the company.

Advice For Young People

In the United States, speaking with people who are in-house counsel, they're always discussing that sense of understanding the business and helping the business make business decisions as well as legal decisions. It sounds like a corollary to that in this setting. What advice would you give to someone who might be considering either law school, the space industry, or anything like that? What advice would you give to younger folks in terms of what they might do to either prepare for that or how to survive law school? Any advice?

For me, the hardest thing was to know what I was meant to do. I came from a very conditioned background that had a set of expectations. It curbs your creativity. It doesn't give you room to identify yourself because you're always trying to respond to a requirement that is set externally. I discovered myself when I started meditating. It was the first time I introspected. I took quiet time and I looked within. That unleashed my creative power. It made me be closer in touch with my strengths and identify my strengths.

It was almost as if I could quieten the noise that was coming from the outside. You could push back all the expectations that were being imposed by others. I quieten all that noise to observe myself and realize, “I'm good at this.” I started living that more. What advice would I give? Take time to discover who you are. Identify what you are good at because that's what you are meant to do. Let that drive your choices. Let that be the magic that brings opportunities to you. Have the courage to jump and take them. Is that useful advice? It’s abstract.

That's useful. I also think that's so important to be objective about it. Understanding what your strengths are is hard. It takes time.

I was over 30 before I realized what I was good at, and that's a shame. We need to cultivate the youth and kids to learn to be in touch with themselves and identify their own inner powers. We are all unique. Everybody has a role to play. The expectation for me was always, “It has to be an intellectual thing. You have to become a professional.”

We need to encourage the youth to learn to be in touch with themselves and identify their inner powers because we are all unique and everybody has a role to play.

I was a really good dancer when I was young. I was a good Indian classical dancer. That's what I wanted to do. When I was sixteen, I wanted to leave England, go to dance school, and do a degree in that in India. I was not allowed, simple as that. In a parallel life, maybe I would be a famous dancer and not somebody who has this big career. I never wanted a big career. My conditioning and then being forced to find what I am good at within this framework and not within the artistic framework led me to where I am. It's survival. This is the path you have to take to find your way to how you are going to survive. You have to find what is your strength and what is going to get you through that.

That's true. It’s finding freedom within the constraints.

Luckily, it's possible.

You have to be a strong person to do that. Our families try to do what they think is the best for us. They say, “Do this because this will be the best thing for you in the long-term.” They may not be wrong about that but a little flexibility would be good. You not only need to be happy, but you also want to feel that you're contributing. Having meaning in life and contributing is really important.

My parents might have been right about winding up as a bilingual secretary. I know many people who have studied languages and have brilliant careers. That's fine, but they gave me good advice on that one. You can only say that retrospectively, “I wouldn't be where I am today had I studied only languages.” Everything opens your mind in some way and leads to the next thing.

When you look back, it makes sense. When you're going along the path, you don't know which branch you're going to take or how it will all fit together but it always seems to, ultimately, to some degree. That's so true. Another one of my guests had a really interesting commentary, which seemed like an elaboration or the next step from what you talked about. Everybody wants to know what is their purpose, what is the meaning of their life, and what are they going to contribute. It's related to what you're talking about in terms of skills and strengths instead of very particular things.

Sometimes, people say, “I'm supposed to be a lawyer,” or, “I'm supposed to be this.” Your skills can be applied in a number of different ways. Don't be so focused on the one role that you think you can play. Maybe you contribute in different ways throughout your life. Your purpose could change as you move through life and you have different experiences and different skills that you're building. It’s to be open to that as well along the journey.

Younger people especially sometimes decide, “This is the one thing I'm going to do.” Maybe along the way, you'll find something else that is more fascinating or more interesting at that stage so it's not just one thing that you're doing. Thank you so much for that. That's good advice that you gave. Your story is a good one too in terms of finding your way.

Lightning Round Questions

Usually, I ask a few questions at the end. I call them lightning round but you can give longer answers if you'd like. I'll start with leadership. What is your top tip for effective leadership? You can talk about that in any way that we've talked about here, whether it's leading your direct team or leading a coalition or consortium of others who are outside.

Be accountable. Assume your responsibility. Realize your responsibility and step up to it.

What would be your top tip for the effective facilitation of various stakeholders? That's what you do at the UN significantly. You have so many different groups that you're convening and facilitating discussions. What do you think are some good tips for doing that? I think people would like to be able to do that even if they're not at the UN.

Inspire them by being yourself. Make them want to speak with you and listen to you. Honesty has a big part to play in that, at least in my case.

People respond to authenticity, for sure.

Authenticity is the word. You have to have a vision. You have to be able to bring them along.

Inspire people by being yourself. Make them want to speak with and listen to you. Honesty has a big part in that, but you have to have a vision. You have to be able to bring them along.

We're all together going towards this one place.

Inspire them.

Which talent would you most like to have but don’t?

It's not a talent, I suppose. I wish I could do math. I have a big trauma about mathematics. I was really good at it when I was sixteen to the point that my friends used to call me The Calculator because I could do mental arithmetic fast. The thing is, I stopped after that. I wanted to do math, but in school, it was in the same column as French. You had to choose three subjects in different columns. Math and French were in the same one so I couldn't take both. I had to do French but I was really sad at leaving math. It was the beginning of the end. I'm traumatized by not being able to do math. I don’t know if that's a talent, but it haunts me.

It haunts you that you couldn't do that. Who are some of your favorite writers?

I don't read much, but when I do, I like Khalil Gibran and Rumi, the Sufi mystics and poets. I find great meaning and depth in what they say. It moves me.

When you were going, I was like, “The Sufi writings.” They're amazing. For what in your life do you feel most grateful?

My family, my children, and my dog.

What kind of dog?

It's an Italian Greyhound called Ralph.  I had to leave Ralph away when I took this job. He was my last born.

I was wondering about how Ralph could be when he wouldn't see you very much, I suppose, in this.

I get him back when I go back to Brussels but it's only for a week or two weeks. On day one, he can’t look me in the eye anymore. It takes us a day before we connect.

I have that too. When I get home from this trip, there's this whole, “Who are you? I don't know you,” for a day, and then they're back. It's exactly the same thing. Given the choice of anyone in the world, living or not, who would you invite either as a dinner guest or to a dinner party? It could be more than 1 person or just 1 person.

Yuval Noah Harari. He is a wonderful mix of compassion and intellect to engage with and to learn from. To lead, we need that.

We need a combination of those. This is the last question. What is your motto, if you have one?

My motto is always, “Be your authentic self.” I will win or lose on my terms, and I can only do that if I'm myself. People ask me, “What's your next step going to be? Where do you see yourself next?” I'm like, “What?” I never wanted a big career. I have this. It's a purpose, it's a mission. I need to do this. What I'm grateful for is the opportunity to be able to make a difference because the world needs it.

Just be yourself. Be authentic. You will win or lose on your terms, and you can only do that if you are yourself.

People are like, “There are many other things that you could do to make a difference in the world.” They’re not mine. This is mine. I'm going to do this and we'll see where it goes. I don't have any plans. If I could have a choice, I would not do this. I would go home, be with my family, and live a domestic life because I love that and I don't have it anymore.

There are trade-offs and sacrifices. That's for sure. It’s important to be 100% present where you are and what you're doing. That made me think of the combination of the Sufi writings and your meditation. That helps you stay present.

It's very important to stay grounded. I  see it in myself sometimes. I'm really happy to be a grounded person who's reasonably humble. When you have so much attention, it's easy to spring out of that and get a big ego. That's horrible because you've lost touch with who you are. That's not you. That's a show. That's a persona. It's hard when you're constantly getting that, so keep finding yourself. That's why you need to meditate. You have to take quiet time only with yourself to find yourself again or with your family and your dog. Bring it back.

It’s easy to spring out of being grounded and get a big ego when you have so much attention.

That's a beautiful way to conclude. Thank you so much again for participating in the show and for inviting me to sit down and chat with you.

Thanks for having me.

Third Boxcar LLC
Next

Best Of The Portia Project II: Guest Mottos